16 ms·

Using Matrix to replace proprietary and centralized chat apps

308 points by jaemoe 6y ago

Yoric 6y ago
Mozilla has been using Matrix for a few years. We migrated towards it from IRC to get encryption, logs, moderation, authentication, etc. And it's better than pretty much any proprietary solution (including Slack) thanks to the ability to talk with people from outside the organization. Also, open-source doesn't hurt :)
nateberkopec 6y ago
I recently created a Matrix channel for my open-source project. It's really quite good. They need to work on the threading (I prefer Slack's model), but really it's 90% as good as Slack for my use case of an OSS community.
- dijit 6y ago
  I know it’s bike-shedding at this point but I really dislike slacks threads. I would highly recommend looking at Zulip and telling me what you think. a good example of Zulip in action is the Rust communities Zulip instance. rust-lang.zulipchat.com
  - heinrich5991 6y ago
    Zulip cannot be read without signing up. That's very annoying.
    - punchagan 6y ago
      It is a feature that's currently being worked on actively. You can follow the work here: https://github.com/zulip/zulip/pull/16131 https://github.com/zulip/zulip/pull/16131
  - wcerfgba 6y ago
    I much prefer Zulip's thread model to Slack's (it it bolt-on and poorly done: threads have no titles, they get lost in history as there is no way to list threads, and they are optional so people only use them some times), but I prefer Slack's UI to Zulip: in Zulip everything feels a bit 'tight' and too close together. Also the big outline box for keyboard navigation is distracting to me. Seems like an interesting study in developer-driven design: in Zulip the mental model is much better, but the appearance of the UI isn't as nice.
- karlicoss 6y ago
  There is some ongoing work on threading https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/2349 https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/2349 Apparently it's already in the protocol, just needs UI support from the clients. Not sure if they use Slack model though
  - Arathorn 6y ago
    There are two threads (heh) of work on threading in Matrix - one is label-based threading like Zulip: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/2326 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/2326, which is implemented today in Synapse but isn't exposed by any(?) clients. The other is full HN/Reddit/Twitter/FB style threading, as per https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/2836/files https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/2836/files, which has been implemented at https://github.com/matrix-org/cerulean https://github.com/matrix-org/cerulean and if successful will get fast-tracked into Element. Quite what the UX will be is unclear, but it's unlikely to be Slack/MM/Gitter-style.
    - karlicoss 6y ago
      Oh thanks for the info! Even better, I'm not a big fan of Slack threads anyway :)
nelsonenzo 6y ago
How do join a server though? That are always full and require invite. Matrix is one of the least welcoming chat communities, imho.
- jaemoe 6y ago
  You need to change the homeserver url to another one. There is a list here https://www.hello-matrix.net/public_servers.php https://www.hello-matrix.net/public_servers.php Also what do you mean by "That are always full and require invite" ?
  - ptman 6y ago
    That list is unfortunately no longer maintained and quite outdated. https://publiclist.anchel.nl/ https://publiclist.anchel.nl/ might be better.
    - nelsonenzo 6y ago
      Thank you both for highlighting my point.
- hestefisk 6y ago
  Join fossnode, it’s free and open!
- anticensor 6y ago
  matrix.org still accepts new members.
ducktective 6y ago
I really hope Matrix to take off as The modern IRC alternative instead of proprietary solutions like Discord...The amount of open-source projects using Discord as a chat forum is too damn high. However, their "generic" naming of their apps doesn't help: Matrix, Element (seriously?)
- jaemoe 6y ago
  Yes, this is really sad to see that much people in the OSS scene using nonfree ways to communicate. At least, IRC had open-source servers and clients but in my opinion, it's too old nowadays.
  - judge2020 6y ago
    OSS primarily uses a non-free way to host source code (GitHub), so it's not much different to use Discord.
    - jaemoe 6y ago
      And it's sad to see.
      - snazz 6y ago
        There are at least a few different "OSS scenes" that have different priorities. More principled, idealistic developers fall under a different category than more pragmatic ones, so it should be no surprise that they use different tools.
        frabbit 6y ago
        Using non-Free tools has been shown to be distinctly non-pragmatic under a wide variety of considerations. A better term would be something like "Tied programmers" or "Dependent progammers". Maybe "sharecropper progammers"?
        6y ago
nimbius 6y ago
>Matrix isn’t centralized to a single server. Bullshit. the identity server has only one reference implementation. you can run your own but "This won't be very useful right now, though, and we don't recommend it." according to the faq. to date, matrix has no idea how to federate identity. "The precise architecture of identity servers is currently in flux and subject to change as we work to fully decentralise them." really? after six years theres no progress on it? matrix handles 9 million users but the web store hoodies and stickers were somehow a bigger priority.
- jaemoe 6y ago
  You know that the identity server is not mandatory and is only useful in a professional setting right? If you really want to, you can host it yourself.
  - nimbius 6y ago
    without one clients will not be able to look up user IDs using 3PIDs, so its relatively important. hosting it yourself means having to email or message "us" in order to federate it.
    - andrewshadura 6y ago
      I've been using Matrix for three years I believe and I can't remember a single time when I needed to use 3PIDs.
      - business007 6y ago
        does matrix store anything in the server or is this really p2p? can this be a good replacement for say, telegram?
    - feanaro 6y ago
      So don't use a 3PID to add someone, use their MXID. It's a unique, global identifier and is similar enough to an email address. There's also a Matrix URI specification in the works (https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/2312 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/2312). Once that lands, we should start seeing support for Matrix URIs in applications. This will allow applications to also start recognising MXIDs and converting them into working links, which will in turn help with people's recognition of the MXID.
maelito 6y ago
I can't recommend Matrix/Element to the dozen chat instances I follow until the absence of threads is fixed: https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/2349#issue-comment-box https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/2349#issue-c...
- Arathorn 6y ago
  You may be interested in https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/kegan/msc/threading/proposals/2836-threading.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/kegan/msc/thre... and https://github.com/matrix-org/cerulean https://github.com/matrix-org/cerulean then, which if successful will come over to Element soon enough.
bananadrama 6y ago
I'm disappointed XMPP was not adequately improved, and instead everything has been re-written and re-designed. XMPP is an IETF spec. Is Matrix?
- jaemoe 6y ago
  Matrix is not.
- lallysingh 6y ago
  It's extension story was fragmented, and there wasn't enough of a consensus (different actors had very different use cases) to pull it back together. Chat needs a stronger guiding body to keep it corralled. It's too easy and tempting to extend in incompatible ways.
- upofadown 6y ago
  Well it isn't like XMPP has died or something. There are hundreds of servers and lots of clients. Having the Matrix project doesn't take away from that in any way. If Matrix becomes popular then it could supersede XMPP which is OK. Right now it is federated vs everything else really. There is no reason to think that Matrix is suddenly going to be used by regular people where XMPP was not. The bigger issue here can't be solved by purely technical means.
- Arathorn 6y ago
  Matrix isn't an IETF spec, and nor was XMPP until 2011 - 13 years after XMPP/Jabber was created. Matrix is 6 years old. Meanwhile, https://matrix.org/foundation https://matrix.org/foundation is effectively its own standards body, and once Matrix is more mature I hope it'll end up being ratified by IETF or similar too. In terms of "XMPP not being adequately improved" - XMPP is a very different proposition to Matrix. Matrix is all about replicating conversation history around the place. XMPP is message passing and pubsub.
- eeZah7Ux 6y ago
  The sad irony is that the Matrix protocol was sold as a much simpler alternative to the bloated XMPP... ...and now it's bloated as well.
gravitas 6y ago
Anecdotal: I am having trouble getting anyone (nerdy/techy or otherwise, but let's stick to Linux-y friends, I'm a Linux professional) to set up an account and actually use the service. Even the friends who are very privacy and security leaning in nature who might embrace what Matrix offers in this realm. I generally steer them towards the Element clients (web/phone) which are easy to use. A few have created accounts, logged on, a chat or two then walked away, never really came back. The federated non-tech channels I'm in are pretty dead as well (hobbies and the like). Couple hundred people... maybe a post or two a month. Point being, it's not getting adopted outside of software/tech circles (almost every happening room/channel is based around some sort of software or tech solution) from what I can tell, so I end up having no use for it other than communicating with random folks ala IRC general chat.
- AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
  This confuses me. Those individuals who are > very privacy and security leaning in nature were not already on Matrix?
  - gravitas 6y ago
    Nope, and show reluctance to even bother trying. We communicate via Signal, which unlike Matrix has favored adoption even outside tech circles in the past few years.
    - godelski 6y ago
      Also isn't E2EE new to Matrix? My understanding is also that they don't handle group privacy the same way that Signal does (which granted, is a new feature as well). I'll also say that in a space that is evolving quickly, a centralized system where I can know that people are on a version similar to me is pretty important. I don't have any fear of Moxie turning and pushing backdoor keys into everyone's app.
      - twentydollars 6y ago
        > Also isn't E2EE new to Matrix? It was turned on by default in May of 2020. It was available before then. > I don't have any fear of Moxie turning and pushing backdoor keys into everyone's app. He could, though, and you have to trust him not to. I see that as a problem.
rainingcatndogs 6y ago
I recently watched the social dilemma from netflix, they touched the serious matters and presented well but what disappointed me was the lack of awareness about these alternatives. It would have been of great help if they provided references to projects like matrix and fediverse.
alexandr1us 6y ago
My company uses Matrix for internal collaboration. We use Element. It is quite good. Element is quite buggy tho. I still don't get what is the maximum storage we can use, is it unlimited?
- jaemoe 6y ago
  It is defined by the instance's admin generally. Try to ask your IT guy, maybe he'll know more about this!
BlueTemplar 6y ago
One thing that slightly bothers me is how Matrix is so high up the network level : > The Matrix standard specifies RESTful HTTP APIs for securely transmitting and replicating JSON data between Matrix-capable clients, servers and services. It seems like a waste to try to push everything through HTTP, just because it's not being blocked (yet) by firewalls that software users might have no control over. Especially when overwhelming IPv6 adoption seems to be finally just around the corner (with Europe having ran out of IPv4 addresses, and a lot of people, especially in Asia, never having had one in the first place), IPv6 which has a quite different approach to security than IPv4. But of course "just around the corner" is also "not really here yet"... Anyone has any idea what kind of performance improvements one gets with RTSP/UDP, especially for video ?
- rakoo 6y ago
  Matrix is currently using JSON+HTTP because it was the easiest to start with, but it's not something that the protocol actually depends on. Matrix is more of an RPC system, so the important part is the definition of the methods and the message. You could use any other transport and framing protocol... As they have actually done in experiments (see https://matrix.org/blog/2019/03/12/breaking-the-100-bps-barrier-with-matrix-meshsim-coap-proxy https://matrix.org/blog/2019/03/12/breaking-the-100-bps-barr...) The thing is, with widespread high bandwidth internet and little funding they have to have priorities and while minimizing the number of bytes sounds interesting, it probably isn't more important than say smoothing out the user first experience
  - BlueTemplar 6y ago
    Thanks, 100 bps is amazing ! > with widespread high bandwidth internet Well, not everywhere in the world. But this kind of compatibility is the best of both options !
    - rakoo 6y ago
      Indeed, definitely not everywhere in the world. But they're probably prioritizing the crowd that at least has access to a few hundreds of kbps, because they're the one who have the most chance to bring any money.
pteraspidomorph 6y ago
One silly little thing that has turned my users away in the past (I don't know if it's still the case) was the difficulty to give them a URL preloaded to connect to another homeserver when using riot/element. Constantly having to click to show the homeserver field and then filling it in was annoying and added friction to the process.
- Arathorn 6y ago
  Ugh, we had this and it got lost and needs to be re-added - please upvote https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/5469 https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/5469. I've bumped the priority on it.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
cblconfederate 6y ago
How can i integrate an existing user base with a matrix homeserver?
- Arathorn 6y ago
  https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-bridge/blob/develop/HOWTO.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-bridge/blob/... gives an idea. We'll publish a big blogpost shortly to demonstrate how we've done it for Gitter once that launches too.
sitzkrieg 6y ago
matrix synapse is missing basic administrative functions and you're left to some random scripts in contrib to attempt to manage your homeserver. apparently leaving the server to grow unbounded is an acceptable default and i hate it this is not to mention that there is one usable client, element and its buggy on all platforms
- Arathorn 6y ago
  The admin APIs are at https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/tree/develop/docs/admin_api https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/tree/develop/docs/admi... and are fairly comprehensive. Agreed it's a screw-up that we don't provide an official web UI for it (but https://github.com/Awesome-Technologies/synapse-admin https://github.com/Awesome-Technologies/synapse-admin is pretty good). I have no idea why you think it'd be acceptable for your server to randomly delete old messages from under you by default - I'd go nuts if my IMAP server or filesystem decided to spontaneously expire old data by default. However, it's easy enough to flip the bit in the config to do so: https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/blob/ca2db5dd0c9fc430a931b4d456fea6a5300b8b42/docs/sample_config.yaml#L369-L380 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/blob/ca2db5dd0c9fc430a.... If this is something that makes you hateful, I'm not sure it's Matrix's problem. In terms of Element: yes, software has bugs, and we're working through them. weechat-matrix is very usable too, as is FluffyChat and a bunch of others.
  - lifthrasiir 6y ago
    > I have no idea why you think it'd be acceptable for your server to randomly delete old messages from under you by default [...] IRC's discourse model is asynchronous and ephemeral, so if someone found IRC is enough then one will of course do expect messages to be ephemeral in any IRC replacements. Pretty sure that this is not a majority opinion, but this might be one reason.
    - sitzkrieg 6y ago
      further IRC etc did not host the media files directly. I mean, if synapse got actually working blob storage (S3, etc) support for media, that would make it a far less balooning problem. There is some option there for it and it all ends up on disk still so I assume its a backup strategy
mixologic 6y ago
> Matrix is 100% open-source. It's still astonishing to me that people think that open source somehow has any bearing on the issue of: > Nobody can say what the server is doing nor what it is harvesting which could be very dangerous. Thats still true, whether its running open source software or not. You cannot inspect the running code on a server, except, now you have to trust a whole federated mob of servers.
- tmp538394722 6y ago
  With some important caveats, this situation is what remote attestation / SGX secure enclaves are hoping to improve. https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/ https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/
- Arathorn 6y ago
  The solution is to get rid of the servers, as per https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix.
  - maqp 6y ago
    Serverless architecture in many cases leaks the IP-address to the opposing party (without by-default anonymization via Tor). Cryptography is just math, nothing magical happens when p2p is applied, there's still a MITM risk, but there's no scalability issue in compromised IX-routers doing MITM against p2p system users, when compared to compromised Matrix servers doing MITM on mass scale. Less packet filtering but nation state adversaries don't exactly throw in the towel when they need to filter packets by protocol.
- schmorptron 6y ago
  As someone who doesn't know much about it, would a malicious homeserver have any way to break the end to end encryption, save for putting massive amounts of men in the middle between each conversation which would be busted the second anyone decides to compare public keys?
  - 6y ago
CDSlice 6y ago
At least for me, Matrix has not been a very good experience. It is very bare bones compared to programs like Discord and has been pretty glitchy in my experience with things like mentions not working reliably. My friends and I have instead set up a self-hosted Mattermost instance which has everything we wanted like self hosting for privacy, a great bot API, easy channel management with the ability to reply to specific messages, and it has a simple way to self-host file uploads. Mattermost is also much more performant even though both Mattermost and Element are Electron apps. Mattermost also just has a much nicer end user UX in our opinion.
- schoolornot 6y ago
  There is a common thread with messenger apps where developers are too opinionated to a point where they refuse to deliver what most users actually want. I understand Matrix is a work in progress and has some improvements over existing solutions like wonky encryption and federation but you're right, it's no Discord or Slack. This is what most people want. An open source free as in beer copy of Slack or Discord with mobile apps, push notifications, and API support. My company isn't dropping a paid Slack plan with hundreds of integrations for something that kind of works just because it's free. This stuff has to be polished to be taken seriously. Just look at iMessage which has been around for 7 years. Even Google is too inept to realize that it's what Android users want. What the hell is wrong with them?
  - coryrc 6y ago
    Developers gotta eat. Why should they make you a free cost clone of Slack?
betwixthewires 6y ago
I expended a significant amount of social capital getting my core friend group to use it, only for the client to start having all kinds of problems a bit before the (last) rebranding. Everyone eventually left. Good luck getting anyone to try something a second time. I think the concept shows promise, the execution is OK, and I know how hard something like this can be but the project looks mismanaged. Multiple rebrandings, multiple organizations for different commercial and non commercial purposes, simple bugs that would be found with a cursory use of the tools before release, it's like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. I still hold out hope that the project matures eventually.
charliebrownau 6y ago
I am yet to see a good valid reason to use Matrix, Federation and all these new modern 'app's' over - IRC - Mumble - FTP - http forums etc It just seems to be another way to centralise and remove privacy to by allowing a platform to replicate your data in the background At this rate I cant see a future on mainstream internet with most goverments in the world going along with Globalism, Anti Male, Anti Privacy , Anti Freedom, Anti Free Speech along with Global Reset 2021 , Global Plandemic lockdown and Agenda 21 We will have to migrate to - tor - ipfs or some off mainstream commications network in the future ( LORA/DIY network) ---- I got banned from 8 discord servers, fakebook, twatter and been shadow banned from serval censortube channels against the content creator wish's , so im probly on some censortube list Discord also stuffed up in 3 different verison releases in Linux I just went back to Mumble, IRC and small forums --- Yet to see a single matrix client that can match the simple tradational style of mIRC or Hexchat --- I am also migrating away from System D pulse audio dbus Snapd/snaps/flatpack Currently using artix instead of Ubuntu/Debian ----- Linux seems to be heading in two direction 1. Corporations + Cloud + Centralisation + Modernisation (ubuntu/red hat/etc , censorship, corporation direction, left wing poltical activism injection and 2. breaking away from Cloud, Centralsiation, censorship, SystemD/dbus/wayland/pulse/etc At this rate Linux will become two groups - Corporateux - and FreeUX --- Coming back to Matrix why not juse use - DIY/self hosted - IRC - DIY/self hosted - XMMP + Encyption - DIY/self hosted - forums - DIY/self hosted - Mumble - DIY/self hosted - SIP - DIY/self hosted - Jitsi - DIY/self hosted - RSS/simple http ___________ Regards Charliebrownau Gab.com/charliebrownau Minds.com/charliebrownau
pmlnr 6y ago
XMPP failed - so will, sadly, Matrix. Why? Because it's impossible to make people move from whatever they are using at the moment. Plus setting up your own federated Matrix is bloody hard, especially if you want it with the key and the identity servers. Running Prosody, and XMPP server is a breeze compared to it. ICQ vanished when MSN got distributed with Windows (at least in Hungary it did), Whatsapp ate the mobile world in a blink of an eye. What we really need is a cross platform, sync between your clients, multi-platform, new Pidgin.
- Arathorn 6y ago
  Is it really that hard? I recorded a video of doing it (including jitsi) from scratch in 20 minutes a few months ago: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/04/06/running-your-own-secure-communication-service-with-matrix-and-jitsi https://matrix.org/blog/2020/04/06/running-your-own-secure-c....
  - pmlnr 6y ago
    ... on Ubuntu with pre-built repos. And no, the default install is never that hard, not even on FreeBSD. But then, on it's own, Matrix is just yet another chat system, which I really don't need - what I would need are the bridges. And setting up the bridges are horrible.
    - maqp 6y ago
      The need to setup bridges negates the privacy benefits, it breaks the opportunistic E2EE when copies of all messages are sent to e.g. Telegram servers that stores them effectively in plaintext. When the main goal is to invite people to some platform, bridges are a shortcut to allow some people to join, but until everyone joins and the bridge can be removed, there's no improvement. Interestingly, people don't really consider the privacy aspect. Average users claim they don't want another messaging app, but somehow they find the willpower to jump from facebook to instagram to snapchat to tiktok to wine to telegram to periscope to kik. My peers use have an inside joke of "stickers > human rights" which describes what motivates people. Matrix or be it any other client, needs an exclusive throw-in feature that appeals to masses, basically something that combines sharing everything like they used to on social media, something that feeds their narcissism (likes etc.), and something that's fun (think tiktok videos). Signal doesn't have it, at least yet. Matrix most certainly doesn't have it. Telegram has some of it. The usability needs to be intuitive and thought thoroughly, and it needs to make managing (social) life easier. We've already seen this with personal could in e.g. Signal's "note to self", or Telegram's polls -feature (I'm hesitant to consider it a feature since it's inherently non-private method to share opinions to Telegram developers about something: group chats are never E2EE). My perception of Matrix is that it fails to deliver the stuff listed above, as well as life management, ease of use, moving responsibility of hosting to some trusted peer, and even security agility and default security feel off. The only thing that makes Matrix stand out is the ideological "decentralization means no individual has control over communication" which doesn't resonate with privacy-minded users who care about E2EE-by-default-for-everything, nor to average users who don't hesitate for a second to jump from TikTok to FlobbordSocial that allows them to share videos of their Plumbus X if it gives them social acceptance and likes, i.e. dopamine spikes. These people consider apps fads that come and go, they don't really consider long-term availability because they're always looking for the new shiny thing to fill their internal void. They know they can always call/text/whatsapp their friends if Flobbord suddenly seizes to exist.
ahnick 6y ago
IMHO the problem with Matrix is federation. I think adoption would be far better if there was just a single, open source, global, decentralized Matrix network. Users don't want to have to run their own servers and have to figure out which network of servers to join. If a user downloads a client app to their phone they expect to be able to then connect to THE network. As long as the code is open source, then there is always an out to create a new network, but why do that before it is actually necessary? (Basically federation is just a form of premature optimization) Communication networks should be like git repos. We should all be working in the same repo, but if sh*t hits the fan, then fork it and carry on with business.
- Arathorn 6y ago
  Sounds like you might be interested in https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix then.
- cblconfederate 6y ago
  Another one is to make it easy to integrate with existing communities. Communities that currently use slack channels, discord channels etc as chat solutions for their websites could switch to use matrix homeservers authenticating with their own user base. It would create a positive feedback loop for adoption, i 'd definitely use it.
betwixthewires 6y ago
There's a project to build a clean, Rust implementation of Matrix called Conduit. https://conduit.rs https://conduit.rs So far it seems pretty active.
marvinblum 6y ago
What happens if the homeserver I created my account on goes offline?
iou 6y ago
Until a big "client" (e.g. Telegram, Signal, WhatsApp,...) switches over to a Matrix backend it's pretty much 1-1 with Element (https://matrix.org/clients/ https://matrix.org/clients/) When that does happen, I'm there I'd love to delete the plethora of chat apps I have to maintain for a client that works well for my tastes. I just don't see what would motivate the incumbents to jump to Matrix?
gentleman11 6y ago
I went to try and download matrix just now. Did it rename itself to riot or element? Are there multiple apps? Is it encrypted? It’s a little confusing
- thomastjeffery 6y ago
  Matrix is the backend, Element (formerly named Riot) is a frontend.
  - rakoo 6y ago
    Almost: Matrix is the protocol, Synapse is the preferred backend
- m52go 6y ago
  Matrix is a protocol. Riot is the old name of the flagship apps built on the Matrix protocol by the core team. Element is the new name.

308 points by jaemoe 6y ago

Mozilla has been using Matrix for a few years. We migrated towards it from IRC to get encryption, logs, moderation, authentication, etc. And it's better than pretty much any proprietary solution (including Slack) thanks to the ability to talk with people from outside the organization. Also, open-source doesn't hurt :)

nateberkopec 6y ago

I recently created a Matrix channel for my open-source project. It's really quite good. They need to work on the threading (I prefer Slack's model), but really it's 90% as good as Slack for my use case of an OSS community.

dijit 6y ago
I know it’s bike-shedding at this point but I really dislike slacks threads. I would highly recommend looking at Zulip and telling me what you think. a good example of Zulip in action is the Rust communities Zulip instance. rust-lang.zulipchat.com
- heinrich5991 6y ago
  Zulip cannot be read without signing up. That's very annoying.
  - punchagan 6y ago
    It is a feature that's currently being worked on actively. You can follow the work here: https://github.com/zulip/zulip/pull/16131 https://github.com/zulip/zulip/pull/16131
- wcerfgba 6y ago
  I much prefer Zulip's thread model to Slack's (it it bolt-on and poorly done: threads have no titles, they get lost in history as there is no way to list threads, and they are optional so people only use them some times), but I prefer Slack's UI to Zulip: in Zulip everything feels a bit 'tight' and too close together. Also the big outline box for keyboard navigation is distracting to me. Seems like an interesting study in developer-driven design: in Zulip the mental model is much better, but the appearance of the UI isn't as nice.
karlicoss 6y ago
There is some ongoing work on threading https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/2349 https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/2349 Apparently it's already in the protocol, just needs UI support from the clients. Not sure if they use Slack model though
- Arathorn 6y ago
  There are two threads (heh) of work on threading in Matrix - one is label-based threading like Zulip: https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/2326 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/2326, which is implemented today in Synapse but isn't exposed by any(?) clients. The other is full HN/Reddit/Twitter/FB style threading, as per https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/2836/files https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/2836/files, which has been implemented at https://github.com/matrix-org/cerulean https://github.com/matrix-org/cerulean and if successful will get fast-tracked into Element. Quite what the UX will be is unclear, but it's unlikely to be Slack/MM/Gitter-style.
  - karlicoss 6y ago
    Oh thanks for the info! Even better, I'm not a big fan of Slack threads anyway :)

nelsonenzo 6y ago

How do join a server though? That are always full and require invite. Matrix is one of the least welcoming chat communities, imho.

jaemoe 6y ago
You need to change the homeserver url to another one. There is a list here https://www.hello-matrix.net/public_servers.php https://www.hello-matrix.net/public_servers.php Also what do you mean by "That are always full and require invite" ?
- ptman 6y ago
  That list is unfortunately no longer maintained and quite outdated. https://publiclist.anchel.nl/ https://publiclist.anchel.nl/ might be better.
  - nelsonenzo 6y ago
    Thank you both for highlighting my point.
hestefisk 6y ago
Join fossnode, it’s free and open!
anticensor 6y ago
matrix.org still accepts new members.

ducktective 6y ago

I really hope Matrix to take off as The modern IRC alternative instead of proprietary solutions like Discord...The amount of open-source projects using Discord as a chat forum is too damn high. However, their "generic" naming of their apps doesn't help: Matrix, Element (seriously?)

jaemoe 6y ago
Yes, this is really sad to see that much people in the OSS scene using nonfree ways to communicate. At least, IRC had open-source servers and clients but in my opinion, it's too old nowadays.
- judge2020 6y ago
  OSS primarily uses a non-free way to host source code (GitHub), so it's not much different to use Discord.
  - jaemoe 6y ago
    And it's sad to see.
    - snazz 6y ago
      There are at least a few different "OSS scenes" that have different priorities. More principled, idealistic developers fall under a different category than more pragmatic ones, so it should be no surprise that they use different tools.
      - frabbit 6y ago
        Using non-Free tools has been shown to be distinctly non-pragmatic under a wide variety of considerations. A better term would be something like "Tied programmers" or "Dependent progammers". Maybe "sharecropper progammers"?
        6y ago

nimbius 6y ago

>Matrix isn’t centralized to a single server. Bullshit. the identity server has only one reference implementation. you can run your own but "This won't be very useful right now, though, and we don't recommend it." according to the faq. to date, matrix has no idea how to federate identity. "The precise architecture of identity servers is currently in flux and subject to change as we work to fully decentralise them." really? after six years theres no progress on it? matrix handles 9 million users but the web store hoodies and stickers were somehow a bigger priority.

jaemoe 6y ago
You know that the identity server is not mandatory and is only useful in a professional setting right? If you really want to, you can host it yourself.
- nimbius 6y ago
  without one clients will not be able to look up user IDs using 3PIDs, so its relatively important. hosting it yourself means having to email or message "us" in order to federate it.
  - andrewshadura 6y ago
    I've been using Matrix for three years I believe and I can't remember a single time when I needed to use 3PIDs.
    - business007 6y ago
      does matrix store anything in the server or is this really p2p? can this be a good replacement for say, telegram?
  - feanaro 6y ago
    So don't use a 3PID to add someone, use their MXID. It's a unique, global identifier and is similar enough to an email address. There's also a Matrix URI specification in the works (https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/2312 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/pull/2312). Once that lands, we should start seeing support for Matrix URIs in applications. This will allow applications to also start recognising MXIDs and converting them into working links, which will in turn help with people's recognition of the MXID.

maelito 6y ago

I can't recommend Matrix/Element to the dozen chat instances I follow until the absence of threads is fixed: https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/2349#issue-comment-box https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/2349#issue-c...

Arathorn 6y ago
You may be interested in https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/kegan/msc/threading/proposals/2836-threading.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/blob/kegan/msc/thre... and https://github.com/matrix-org/cerulean https://github.com/matrix-org/cerulean then, which if successful will come over to Element soon enough.

bananadrama 6y ago

I'm disappointed XMPP was not adequately improved, and instead everything has been re-written and re-designed. XMPP is an IETF spec. Is Matrix?

jaemoe 6y ago
Matrix is not.
lallysingh 6y ago
It's extension story was fragmented, and there wasn't enough of a consensus (different actors had very different use cases) to pull it back together. Chat needs a stronger guiding body to keep it corralled. It's too easy and tempting to extend in incompatible ways.
upofadown 6y ago
Well it isn't like XMPP has died or something. There are hundreds of servers and lots of clients. Having the Matrix project doesn't take away from that in any way. If Matrix becomes popular then it could supersede XMPP which is OK. Right now it is federated vs everything else really. There is no reason to think that Matrix is suddenly going to be used by regular people where XMPP was not. The bigger issue here can't be solved by purely technical means.
Arathorn 6y ago
Matrix isn't an IETF spec, and nor was XMPP until 2011 - 13 years after XMPP/Jabber was created. Matrix is 6 years old. Meanwhile, https://matrix.org/foundation https://matrix.org/foundation is effectively its own standards body, and once Matrix is more mature I hope it'll end up being ratified by IETF or similar too. In terms of "XMPP not being adequately improved" - XMPP is a very different proposition to Matrix. Matrix is all about replicating conversation history around the place. XMPP is message passing and pubsub.
eeZah7Ux 6y ago
The sad irony is that the Matrix protocol was sold as a much simpler alternative to the bloated XMPP... ...and now it's bloated as well.

gravitas 6y ago

Anecdotal: I am having trouble getting anyone (nerdy/techy or otherwise, but let's stick to Linux-y friends, I'm a Linux professional) to set up an account and actually use the service. Even the friends who are very privacy and security leaning in nature who might embrace what Matrix offers in this realm. I generally steer them towards the Element clients (web/phone) which are easy to use. A few have created accounts, logged on, a chat or two then walked away, never really came back. The federated non-tech channels I'm in are pretty dead as well (hobbies and the like). Couple hundred people... maybe a post or two a month. Point being, it's not getting adopted outside of software/tech circles (almost every happening room/channel is based around some sort of software or tech solution) from what I can tell, so I end up having no use for it other than communicating with random folks ala IRC general chat.

AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
This confuses me. Those individuals who are > very privacy and security leaning in nature were not already on Matrix?
- gravitas 6y ago
  Nope, and show reluctance to even bother trying. We communicate via Signal, which unlike Matrix has favored adoption even outside tech circles in the past few years.
  - godelski 6y ago
    Also isn't E2EE new to Matrix? My understanding is also that they don't handle group privacy the same way that Signal does (which granted, is a new feature as well). I'll also say that in a space that is evolving quickly, a centralized system where I can know that people are on a version similar to me is pretty important. I don't have any fear of Moxie turning and pushing backdoor keys into everyone's app.
    - twentydollars 6y ago
      > Also isn't E2EE new to Matrix? It was turned on by default in May of 2020. It was available before then. > I don't have any fear of Moxie turning and pushing backdoor keys into everyone's app. He could, though, and you have to trust him not to. I see that as a problem.

rainingcatndogs 6y ago

I recently watched the social dilemma from netflix, they touched the serious matters and presented well but what disappointed me was the lack of awareness about these alternatives. It would have been of great help if they provided references to projects like matrix and fediverse.

alexandr1us 6y ago

My company uses Matrix for internal collaboration. We use Element. It is quite good. Element is quite buggy tho. I still don't get what is the maximum storage we can use, is it unlimited?

jaemoe 6y ago
It is defined by the instance's admin generally. Try to ask your IT guy, maybe he'll know more about this!

BlueTemplar 6y ago

One thing that slightly bothers me is how Matrix is so high up the network level : > The Matrix standard specifies RESTful HTTP APIs for securely transmitting and replicating JSON data between Matrix-capable clients, servers and services. It seems like a waste to try to push everything through HTTP, just because it's not being blocked (yet) by firewalls that software users might have no control over. Especially when overwhelming IPv6 adoption seems to be finally just around the corner (with Europe having ran out of IPv4 addresses, and a lot of people, especially in Asia, never having had one in the first place), IPv6 which has a quite different approach to security than IPv4. But of course "just around the corner" is also "not really here yet"... Anyone has any idea what kind of performance improvements one gets with RTSP/UDP, especially for video ?

rakoo 6y ago
Matrix is currently using JSON+HTTP because it was the easiest to start with, but it's not something that the protocol actually depends on. Matrix is more of an RPC system, so the important part is the definition of the methods and the message. You could use any other transport and framing protocol... As they have actually done in experiments (see https://matrix.org/blog/2019/03/12/breaking-the-100-bps-barrier-with-matrix-meshsim-coap-proxy https://matrix.org/blog/2019/03/12/breaking-the-100-bps-barr...) The thing is, with widespread high bandwidth internet and little funding they have to have priorities and while minimizing the number of bytes sounds interesting, it probably isn't more important than say smoothing out the user first experience
- BlueTemplar 6y ago
  Thanks, 100 bps is amazing ! > with widespread high bandwidth internet Well, not everywhere in the world. But this kind of compatibility is the best of both options !
  - rakoo 6y ago
    Indeed, definitely not everywhere in the world. But they're probably prioritizing the crowd that at least has access to a few hundreds of kbps, because they're the one who have the most chance to bring any money.

pteraspidomorph 6y ago

One silly little thing that has turned my users away in the past (I don't know if it's still the case) was the difficulty to give them a URL preloaded to connect to another homeserver when using riot/element. Constantly having to click to show the homeserver field and then filling it in was annoying and added friction to the process.

Arathorn 6y ago
Ugh, we had this and it got lost and needs to be re-added - please upvote https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/5469 https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues/5469. I've bumped the priority on it.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

cblconfederate 6y ago

How can i integrate an existing user base with a matrix homeserver?

Arathorn 6y ago
https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-bridge/blob/develop/HOWTO.md https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-appservice-bridge/blob/... gives an idea. We'll publish a big blogpost shortly to demonstrate how we've done it for Gitter once that launches too.

sitzkrieg 6y ago

matrix synapse is missing basic administrative functions and you're left to some random scripts in contrib to attempt to manage your homeserver. apparently leaving the server to grow unbounded is an acceptable default and i hate it this is not to mention that there is one usable client, element and its buggy on all platforms

Arathorn 6y ago
The admin APIs are at https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/tree/develop/docs/admin_api https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/tree/develop/docs/admi... and are fairly comprehensive. Agreed it's a screw-up that we don't provide an official web UI for it (but https://github.com/Awesome-Technologies/synapse-admin https://github.com/Awesome-Technologies/synapse-admin is pretty good). I have no idea why you think it'd be acceptable for your server to randomly delete old messages from under you by default - I'd go nuts if my IMAP server or filesystem decided to spontaneously expire old data by default. However, it's easy enough to flip the bit in the config to do so: https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/blob/ca2db5dd0c9fc430a931b4d456fea6a5300b8b42/docs/sample_config.yaml#L369-L380 https://github.com/matrix-org/synapse/blob/ca2db5dd0c9fc430a.... If this is something that makes you hateful, I'm not sure it's Matrix's problem. In terms of Element: yes, software has bugs, and we're working through them. weechat-matrix is very usable too, as is FluffyChat and a bunch of others.
- lifthrasiir 6y ago
  > I have no idea why you think it'd be acceptable for your server to randomly delete old messages from under you by default [...] IRC's discourse model is asynchronous and ephemeral, so if someone found IRC is enough then one will of course do expect messages to be ephemeral in any IRC replacements. Pretty sure that this is not a majority opinion, but this might be one reason.
  - sitzkrieg 6y ago
    further IRC etc did not host the media files directly. I mean, if synapse got actually working blob storage (S3, etc) support for media, that would make it a far less balooning problem. There is some option there for it and it all ends up on disk still so I assume its a backup strategy

mixologic 6y ago

> Matrix is 100% open-source. It's still astonishing to me that people think that open source somehow has any bearing on the issue of: > Nobody can say what the server is doing nor what it is harvesting which could be very dangerous. Thats still true, whether its running open source software or not. You cannot inspect the running code on a server, except, now you have to trust a whole federated mob of servers.

tmp538394722 6y ago
With some important caveats, this situation is what remote attestation / SGX secure enclaves are hoping to improve. https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/ https://signal.org/blog/private-contact-discovery/
Arathorn 6y ago
The solution is to get rid of the servers, as per https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix.
- maqp 6y ago
  Serverless architecture in many cases leaks the IP-address to the opposing party (without by-default anonymization via Tor). Cryptography is just math, nothing magical happens when p2p is applied, there's still a MITM risk, but there's no scalability issue in compromised IX-routers doing MITM against p2p system users, when compared to compromised Matrix servers doing MITM on mass scale. Less packet filtering but nation state adversaries don't exactly throw in the towel when they need to filter packets by protocol.
schmorptron 6y ago
As someone who doesn't know much about it, would a malicious homeserver have any way to break the end to end encryption, save for putting massive amounts of men in the middle between each conversation which would be busted the second anyone decides to compare public keys?
- 6y ago

CDSlice 6y ago

At least for me, Matrix has not been a very good experience. It is very bare bones compared to programs like Discord and has been pretty glitchy in my experience with things like mentions not working reliably. My friends and I have instead set up a self-hosted Mattermost instance which has everything we wanted like self hosting for privacy, a great bot API, easy channel management with the ability to reply to specific messages, and it has a simple way to self-host file uploads. Mattermost is also much more performant even though both Mattermost and Element are Electron apps. Mattermost also just has a much nicer end user UX in our opinion.

schoolornot 6y ago
There is a common thread with messenger apps where developers are too opinionated to a point where they refuse to deliver what most users actually want. I understand Matrix is a work in progress and has some improvements over existing solutions like wonky encryption and federation but you're right, it's no Discord or Slack. This is what most people want. An open source free as in beer copy of Slack or Discord with mobile apps, push notifications, and API support. My company isn't dropping a paid Slack plan with hundreds of integrations for something that kind of works just because it's free. This stuff has to be polished to be taken seriously. Just look at iMessage which has been around for 7 years. Even Google is too inept to realize that it's what Android users want. What the hell is wrong with them?
- coryrc 6y ago
  Developers gotta eat. Why should they make you a free cost clone of Slack?

betwixthewires 6y ago

I expended a significant amount of social capital getting my core friend group to use it, only for the client to start having all kinds of problems a bit before the (last) rebranding. Everyone eventually left. Good luck getting anyone to try something a second time. I think the concept shows promise, the execution is OK, and I know how hard something like this can be but the project looks mismanaged. Multiple rebrandings, multiple organizations for different commercial and non commercial purposes, simple bugs that would be found with a cursory use of the tools before release, it's like the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing. I still hold out hope that the project matures eventually.

charliebrownau 6y ago

I am yet to see a good valid reason to use Matrix, Federation and all these new modern 'app's' over - IRC - Mumble - FTP - http forums etc It just seems to be another way to centralise and remove privacy to by allowing a platform to replicate your data in the background At this rate I cant see a future on mainstream internet with most goverments in the world going along with Globalism, Anti Male, Anti Privacy , Anti Freedom, Anti Free Speech along with Global Reset 2021 , Global Plandemic lockdown and Agenda 21 We will have to migrate to - tor - ipfs or some off mainstream commications network in the future ( LORA/DIY network) ---- I got banned from 8 discord servers, fakebook, twatter and been shadow banned from serval censortube channels against the content creator wish's , so im probly on some censortube list Discord also stuffed up in 3 different verison releases in Linux I just went back to Mumble, IRC and small forums --- Yet to see a single matrix client that can match the simple tradational style of mIRC or Hexchat --- I am also migrating away from System D pulse audio dbus Snapd/snaps/flatpack Currently using artix instead of Ubuntu/Debian ----- Linux seems to be heading in two direction 1. Corporations + Cloud + Centralisation + Modernisation (ubuntu/red hat/etc , censorship, corporation direction, left wing poltical activism injection and 2. breaking away from Cloud, Centralsiation, censorship, SystemD/dbus/wayland/pulse/etc At this rate Linux will become two groups - Corporateux - and FreeUX --- Coming back to Matrix why not juse use - DIY/self hosted - IRC - DIY/self hosted - XMMP + Encyption - DIY/self hosted - forums - DIY/self hosted - Mumble - DIY/self hosted - SIP - DIY/self hosted - Jitsi - DIY/self hosted - RSS/simple http ___________ Regards Charliebrownau Gab.com/charliebrownau Minds.com/charliebrownau

pmlnr 6y ago

XMPP failed - so will, sadly, Matrix. Why? Because it's impossible to make people move from whatever they are using at the moment. Plus setting up your own federated Matrix is bloody hard, especially if you want it with the key and the identity servers. Running Prosody, and XMPP server is a breeze compared to it. ICQ vanished when MSN got distributed with Windows (at least in Hungary it did), Whatsapp ate the mobile world in a blink of an eye. What we really need is a cross platform, sync between your clients, multi-platform, new Pidgin.

Arathorn 6y ago
Is it really that hard? I recorded a video of doing it (including jitsi) from scratch in 20 minutes a few months ago: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/04/06/running-your-own-secure-communication-service-with-matrix-and-jitsi https://matrix.org/blog/2020/04/06/running-your-own-secure-c....
- pmlnr 6y ago
  ... on Ubuntu with pre-built repos. And no, the default install is never that hard, not even on FreeBSD. But then, on it's own, Matrix is just yet another chat system, which I really don't need - what I would need are the bridges. And setting up the bridges are horrible.
  - maqp 6y ago
    The need to setup bridges negates the privacy benefits, it breaks the opportunistic E2EE when copies of all messages are sent to e.g. Telegram servers that stores them effectively in plaintext. When the main goal is to invite people to some platform, bridges are a shortcut to allow some people to join, but until everyone joins and the bridge can be removed, there's no improvement. Interestingly, people don't really consider the privacy aspect. Average users claim they don't want another messaging app, but somehow they find the willpower to jump from facebook to instagram to snapchat to tiktok to wine to telegram to periscope to kik. My peers use have an inside joke of "stickers > human rights" which describes what motivates people. Matrix or be it any other client, needs an exclusive throw-in feature that appeals to masses, basically something that combines sharing everything like they used to on social media, something that feeds their narcissism (likes etc.), and something that's fun (think tiktok videos). Signal doesn't have it, at least yet. Matrix most certainly doesn't have it. Telegram has some of it. The usability needs to be intuitive and thought thoroughly, and it needs to make managing (social) life easier. We've already seen this with personal could in e.g. Signal's "note to self", or Telegram's polls -feature (I'm hesitant to consider it a feature since it's inherently non-private method to share opinions to Telegram developers about something: group chats are never E2EE). My perception of Matrix is that it fails to deliver the stuff listed above, as well as life management, ease of use, moving responsibility of hosting to some trusted peer, and even security agility and default security feel off. The only thing that makes Matrix stand out is the ideological "decentralization means no individual has control over communication" which doesn't resonate with privacy-minded users who care about E2EE-by-default-for-everything, nor to average users who don't hesitate for a second to jump from TikTok to FlobbordSocial that allows them to share videos of their Plumbus X if it gives them social acceptance and likes, i.e. dopamine spikes. These people consider apps fads that come and go, they don't really consider long-term availability because they're always looking for the new shiny thing to fill their internal void. They know they can always call/text/whatsapp their friends if Flobbord suddenly seizes to exist.

ahnick 6y ago

IMHO the problem with Matrix is federation. I think adoption would be far better if there was just a single, open source, global, decentralized Matrix network. Users don't want to have to run their own servers and have to figure out which network of servers to join. If a user downloads a client app to their phone they expect to be able to then connect to THE network. As long as the code is open source, then there is always an out to create a new network, but why do that before it is actually necessary? (Basically federation is just a form of premature optimization) Communication networks should be like git repos. We should all be working in the same repo, but if sh*t hits the fan, then fork it and carry on with business.

Arathorn 6y ago
Sounds like you might be interested in https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix then.
cblconfederate 6y ago
Another one is to make it easy to integrate with existing communities. Communities that currently use slack channels, discord channels etc as chat solutions for their websites could switch to use matrix homeservers authenticating with their own user base. It would create a positive feedback loop for adoption, i 'd definitely use it.

betwixthewires 6y ago

There's a project to build a clean, Rust implementation of Matrix called Conduit. https://conduit.rs https://conduit.rs So far it seems pretty active.

marvinblum 6y ago

What happens if the homeserver I created my account on goes offline?

iou 6y ago

Until a big "client" (e.g. Telegram, Signal, WhatsApp,...) switches over to a Matrix backend it's pretty much 1-1 with Element (https://matrix.org/clients/ https://matrix.org/clients/) When that does happen, I'm there I'd love to delete the plethora of chat apps I have to maintain for a client that works well for my tastes. I just don't see what would motivate the incumbents to jump to Matrix?

gentleman11 6y ago

I went to try and download matrix just now. Did it rename itself to riot or element? Are there multiple apps? Is it encrypted? It’s a little confusing

thomastjeffery 6y ago
Matrix is the backend, Element (formerly named Riot) is a frontend.
- rakoo 6y ago
  Almost: Matrix is the protocol, Synapse is the preferred backend
m52go 6y ago
Matrix is a protocol. Riot is the old name of the flagship apps built on the Matrix protocol by the core team. Element is the new name.