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Talking to friends in China, there's actually a fair amount of understanding and support for the government. They value stability and the massive leverage ratio

by sfifs 6y ago

Talking to friends in China, there's actually a fair amount of understanding and support for the government. They value stability and the massive leverage ratio Ant was working with scares a lot of people about financial instability - the 2008 great depression is still quite vivid for a lot of decision makers

dice1-6 6y ago
The question however is the decision was based on lending fears? (as it is not connected much to the IPO only the valuation) Or it was an ad-hoc personal decision of Xi because Ma started to overgrow him.
jariel 6y ago
"They value stability" The CCP values absolute, total, ubiquitous and unquestioned control. Challenging their authority with the mere comparison of Xi to 'Winnie the Pooh' will incite censure.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
ekianjo 6y ago
> there's actually a fair amount of understanding and support for the government You have to thank disinformation and mass brainwashing for that. The fact that there is virtually no opposition in China says how far they have gone to control people.
- vkou 6y ago
  If your response to people holding differing opinions is that 'They are obviously stupid and misinformed and brainwashed', I don't think that any productive discussion can be had. I can, after all, say the same thing about anyone who disagrees with me. Attack their argument on its own merits.
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    I like when people strawman my points by adding 'stupid' where it was not written and implied anywhere. Smart people can be equally brainwashed. You cannot have productive discussion with people who have no access to different sources of information. The CCP completely controlling education, media and the Internet makes most people in China in a very bad position to access facts versus pure State propaganda. Add to that a strong social pressure to conform and punishment for divergence and yes, you have mass brainwashing going on.
    - vkou 6y ago
      It's great that you can recognize obvious biases in the information available in another culture. Now, do you not think that we have any relevant prevailing biases, created by our education, media, history, culture, economic system, and government? [1] Ones that are so deeply ingrained in our society, that we don't even notice them? If we were to apply your rubric, that would make arguments between people from different cultures completely unproductive - with each person hailing from each culture being able to dismiss the other's out of hand. The argument you are dismissing as brainwashing seems pretty straightforward to me. It's entirely possible, even reasonable for economic stability to be a goal worth pursuing for government. You may find it anathema, but that viewpoint isn't particularly privileged, in the global space of ideas. [1] That's a rhetorical question - of course we do. They are incredibly obvious to anyone who's lived in a few different countries.
      - dontcarethrow2 6y ago
        Great point. I find culture itself is 'brainwashing'. It is just influence on your thoughts/who you are. The term brainwashing brings a good amount of negativity and polarism. It's not something that happens to 'us' but 'them'. We are all brainwashed to an extent. Knowing that can at least prepare you to bring a good scrub and soap on your washings.
      - ekianjo 6y ago
        > Now, do you not think that we have any relevant prevailing biases, created by our education, media, history, culture, economic system, and government? [1] Ones that are so deeply ingrained in our society, that we don't even notice them? The difference is the key though. In the West we know that we are brainwashed at some level, because we can observe it happening around us with people who share different viewpoints or cultures. However, in a country where there's only one discourse that is accepted, you can mistake your own brainwashing for the actual truth because nothing is out there to make you think otherwise.
- 8note 6y ago
  It could also be that they're right and people have considered the alternatives. Eg. The lack of opposition to the idea that water is wet does not imply that water is in fact dry and everyone is just brain washed
  - ekianjo 6y ago
    > Eg. The lack of opposition to the idea that water is wet does not imply that water is in fact dry and everyone is just brain washed There's no world in which no opposition actually exists when there is a little bit of freedom. You can observe it even in small groups where people can express themselves: you won't have a single convergence of opinions on every topic.
  - Johnjonjoan 6y ago
    There is in fact quite a lot of opposition to the idea that water is wet. Just Google 'is water wet?'.
  - simonh 6y ago
    Theres no way to know if they have considered the alternatives, because it is illegal to even present or discuss any alternatives, and illegal to ask them about it.

by sfifs 6y ago

dice1-6 6y ago

The question however is the decision was based on lending fears? (as it is not connected much to the IPO only the valuation) Or it was an ad-hoc personal decision of Xi because Ma started to overgrow him.

jariel 6y ago

"They value stability" The CCP values absolute, total, ubiquitous and unquestioned control. Challenging their authority with the mere comparison of Xi to 'Winnie the Pooh' will incite censure.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

ekianjo 6y ago

> there's actually a fair amount of understanding and support for the government You have to thank disinformation and mass brainwashing for that. The fact that there is virtually no opposition in China says how far they have gone to control people.

vkou 6y ago
If your response to people holding differing opinions is that 'They are obviously stupid and misinformed and brainwashed', I don't think that any productive discussion can be had. I can, after all, say the same thing about anyone who disagrees with me. Attack their argument on its own merits.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  I like when people strawman my points by adding 'stupid' where it was not written and implied anywhere. Smart people can be equally brainwashed. You cannot have productive discussion with people who have no access to different sources of information. The CCP completely controlling education, media and the Internet makes most people in China in a very bad position to access facts versus pure State propaganda. Add to that a strong social pressure to conform and punishment for divergence and yes, you have mass brainwashing going on.
  - vkou 6y ago
    It's great that you can recognize obvious biases in the information available in another culture. Now, do you not think that we have any relevant prevailing biases, created by our education, media, history, culture, economic system, and government? [1] Ones that are so deeply ingrained in our society, that we don't even notice them? If we were to apply your rubric, that would make arguments between people from different cultures completely unproductive - with each person hailing from each culture being able to dismiss the other's out of hand. The argument you are dismissing as brainwashing seems pretty straightforward to me. It's entirely possible, even reasonable for economic stability to be a goal worth pursuing for government. You may find it anathema, but that viewpoint isn't particularly privileged, in the global space of ideas. [1] That's a rhetorical question - of course we do. They are incredibly obvious to anyone who's lived in a few different countries.
    - dontcarethrow2 6y ago
      Great point. I find culture itself is 'brainwashing'. It is just influence on your thoughts/who you are. The term brainwashing brings a good amount of negativity and polarism. It's not something that happens to 'us' but 'them'. We are all brainwashed to an extent. Knowing that can at least prepare you to bring a good scrub and soap on your washings.
    - ekianjo 6y ago
      > Now, do you not think that we have any relevant prevailing biases, created by our education, media, history, culture, economic system, and government? [1] Ones that are so deeply ingrained in our society, that we don't even notice them? The difference is the key though. In the West we know that we are brainwashed at some level, because we can observe it happening around us with people who share different viewpoints or cultures. However, in a country where there's only one discourse that is accepted, you can mistake your own brainwashing for the actual truth because nothing is out there to make you think otherwise.
8note 6y ago
It could also be that they're right and people have considered the alternatives. Eg. The lack of opposition to the idea that water is wet does not imply that water is in fact dry and everyone is just brain washed
- ekianjo 6y ago
  > Eg. The lack of opposition to the idea that water is wet does not imply that water is in fact dry and everyone is just brain washed There's no world in which no opposition actually exists when there is a little bit of freedom. You can observe it even in small groups where people can express themselves: you won't have a single convergence of opinions on every topic.
- Johnjonjoan 6y ago
  There is in fact quite a lot of opposition to the idea that water is wet. Just Google 'is water wet?'.
- simonh 6y ago
  Theres no way to know if they have considered the alternatives, because it is illegal to even present or discuss any alternatives, and illegal to ask them about it.