7 ms·

A Pretty Good Mathematical Model of Perfectionism

170 points by freefrancisco 6y ago

smitty1e 6y ago
My question is whether we speak of a specific deliverable here, or a body of work. The path is half the battle. Furthermore, getting a [DRAFT] out and interacting with the team has a catalytic effect. Ain't about me. I'm singular. The team is plural. I'm at my location on the curve, with some leading me, some lagging. As a contractor, my good work is for the sake of good work, and the knowledge it brings. That immaculately polished cannonball of a deliverable? Going under a bus. Read Ecclesiastes.
xelxebar 6y ago
I loved this! Not only is it a neat, simple model to play around with, but the tone of the article made me smile. I need more friends like this author! Thank you for taking the (excessive) amount of time to write this and overcoming the urge to polish out all the "imperfections".
- meowing 6y ago
  I know, right? I had the same reaction to the article, makes me miss fun intellectual conversations in college.
- hnarayanan 6y ago
  Her discussions on Twitter and the sorts of people who hang out and talk there are sort of a simulation of this friend set. :)
eyelidlessness 6y ago
For folks finding this model/analysis compelling: many of these observations and coping skills are common in undiagnosed ADHD. It’s not a perfect circle venn diagram, but pretty close. Any kind of paralysis without progressive validation or structured achievement is very likely associated with dopamine release and absorption. In adult-diagnosed ADHD cases, we often find ourselves discovering cleverly invented milestones and achievements or even convenient self deceptions that produce dopamine when it would naturally be a long way away. Speaking for myself, I allow myself personal congratulations and merits for utterly insignificant and pointless details for any task that feels “too big” or “too daunting” to make them achievable for my brain. I can take several hours to get my laundry going, a couple minutes work in all, and I allow myself to celebrate getting the dirty laundry into a basket, then another getting it into the laundry room. Usually by this point following through is automatic and doesn’t require more workarounds. But ultimately the concept is the same. If the reward feels far away, and far away is demotivating, giving yourself rewards along the way opens pathways to keep going when it doesn’t feel feasible otherwise.
- porknubbins 6y ago
  I thought I came up with the idea of attaching symbolic importance to otherwise menial tasks so I can complete them. Things like mail, paperwork, printing materials I make up some kind of scenario where completing the task is of critical importance and reward myself somehow after. I don’t otherwise recognize myself as ADHD though. I think rather its odd people can easily interrupt their day to do this stuff.
  - eyelidlessness 6y ago
    I didn’t recognize myself as ADHD either. I was diagnosed at 37. If I hadn’t taken a (seemingly separate) mental health dive I probably would never have known. It turns out almost all of my anxiety and quite a bit of my depression are easily traced to dopamine deficiency and (sometimes unhealthy) coping strategies. The way I explain the laundry thing to people who don’t experience it is... almost exactly your wording: if I have a “big” task and a “small” task that have time overlap, stopping the “big” one to do even a few minutes of something else is extraordinarily stressful. I can’t interrupt one for the other. On really bad days, both block each other, like a deadlock. Recognizing that it’s happening and creating basically fictional arbitrary rewards helps. Obviously I’m not in any way qualified to say one way or the other, but if things like this meaningfully impede your life I’d recommend reading about adult ADHD, see if things feel like they have explanations you’ve never known you needed... and if you do, seek diagnosis. For my experience when I finally had enough confidence that there was really something to it, I had to read a lot of non-diagnostic literature to really understand how to navigate that process. The DSM criteria are almost entirely designed around diagnosing children, and almost entirely around misbehavior. Adults will not relate to most behavior descriptions and will have developed so many coping alternatives that the answers often form as “well, no, but here is how I’ve learned to compensate”. Edit: I’d be remiss not to credit the actual human on the internet who gave me the most insight into this and ultimately prompted me to seek diagnosis. For anyone looking for someone who speaks extensively and knowledgeably about adult ADHD, I highly recommend following Erynn Brook on twitter.
    - burntoutfire 6y ago
tardismechanic 6y ago
Perfection does not exist in the universe. Imperfections can be found in anything. Enjoying the process, while fully embracing this realization, is key.
- Slackwise 6y ago
  Math is perfection. So, it depends on if you consider math to "exist" in this world.
  - rytill 6y ago
    Not meaning to infringe on the unassailable beauty of mathematics, but the statement that it is “perfect” requires some qualification. Something like “it achieves exactly what it sets out to do?” Given your definition of perfection and why math fits it, is there anything else that fits the definition?
  - scsilver 6y ago
    Is math the result of a process or is it the framework of the processes themselves.
  - necovek 6y ago
    Don't you consider presence of axioms exactly the opposite of perfection? Instead, it's the best human mind can muster.
- wiz21c 6y ago
  perfectionism can be seen as the search to perfection or the fear of making suboptimal result...
rwnspace 6y ago
Someone suggested making minor mistakes on purpose to me a while ago, and it turned out to be a pretty interesting kind of pain to lean into~ There's a typo near the end of the post, which made me smile - my first thought was that it was left in intentionally. I recommend following the author's lead. Like any treatment, it's no panacea, but by god was it liberating, and I'm not entirely disabled by perfectionism these days :)
- willemlabu 6y ago
  The ~ made me smile.
IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago
I find this now commonly believed and endlessly repeated idea that procrastination is primarily due to perfectionism... maybe a little too convenient? As in: it's almost like those jokes about interview answers: "What's your biggest weakness" / "I work too much". It it helps people to cope and build some self-confidence then, maybe, it's the mistake that is net-positive. Sort-of like the (apocryphal) story that Columbus made a mistake and believed India to be much closer to Europe, and wouldn't have attempted to cross the Atlantic otherwise. But my default position would be that any such delusional thought patterns tend to hurt. This, specifically, also has the ugly implication that anybody getting stuff done is sloppy and/or otherwise not at the genius level it takes to never do anything right. (Spoken as someone who should be working instead of arguing on HN)
- jamestimmins 6y ago
  I think it's only too convenient if you view perfectionism as people wanting to do great work or nothing. In reality, I experience it more as "unless I can make this work perfectly, it's gonna be crap so it isn't worth it." So it's less procrastination, and more paralysis.
- eyelidlessness 6y ago
  Completely independent of my comment about ADHD... whatever fictions we need to tell ourselves to function well are only damaging if they mask or enable other dysfunction. If people thrive by believing there’s a god or a magnetic force or lucky numbers, it only hurts if there’s some other harm done. I know we nerds like to focus on metrics and evidence. But the evidence is mixed on self deception.
- birdsbirdsbirds 6y ago
  >the genius level it takes to never do anything right A Freudian slip? Perfectionism is a deeper curse than procrastination. Procrastination can just be laziness, but like Alcoholism, if you cannot stop it, then you have a problem, and then it could be perfectionism. Perfectionism is not perfection, like Socialism is not social.
- Fumtumi 6y ago
Fumtumi 6y ago
It also doesn't help to be a software engineer which task it is to do things which multiply. It also doesn't help that we are now so much more connected. I don't write software for one person. I often write it for Teams or customers and im efficient when i can automate things. I do see this every day when i see people or processies and i think very often how inefficient it is. Concept of good old mail: "useless". Takes ages, a human being has to sort it and has to bring it to you. Or a lot of jobs like all things a computer could do better and faster if we removed humans inbetween and added trust. My mind tries to analyse things on a meta level which also leads to thoughts of relevance. I'm probably a nihilist for a reason. My Mantras for the last few years are about the 'normal' things. Like trying out a new recipe . And at the end of the day, i realize more and more that simple logic isn't working and my influence is very small; Now instead of trying to change something i can't change on a meta level, my goal now is to get away from this all. I'm wandering through a mist of clarity as everyone else to arrive at the same end: death.
luord 6y ago
This resonates with me far, far more than most, if not all, articles, essays, think pieces, etc, about getting things done and procrastination I've ever read. Indeed, I have a serious problem with wanting to have something be perfect when I do it, so often I don't feel like doing it. Ironically, that attitude has the result of sometimes making my work worse, since ultimately I end up having less time to do the work which can lead to sloppy results. I'll now have that nitpicky attitude in check and remind myself that not completely perfect merge/pull requests are still work that my clients can see, and the feedback loop within them when they're not perfect from the get go doesn't necessarily have a downside, and can in fact improve communication and the flow of work. After all, a request is by definition not necessarily the work completed, but literally a request for feedback, and possibly iterating on the work already done. I can even use a trick to mentally tell myself it doesn't have to be perfect: I can start work everyday with the expectation that, at the end, I only need to create or update a draft merge/pull request. That will get me even more easily into the mindset that I'm working to ask for feedback, not to deliver the final piece. Who knows, maybe by the end of the day the work will be good enough for a finished request, so it's a win-win situation. And that's just one idea, that I need to put in action. I'll see how it goes.

170 points by freefrancisco 6y ago

My question is whether we speak of a specific deliverable here, or a body of work. The path is half the battle. Furthermore, getting a [DRAFT] out and interacting with the team has a catalytic effect. Ain't about me. I'm singular. The team is plural. I'm at my location on the curve, with some leading me, some lagging. As a contractor, my good work is for the sake of good work, and the knowledge it brings. That immaculately polished cannonball of a deliverable? Going under a bus. Read Ecclesiastes.

xelxebar 6y ago

I loved this! Not only is it a neat, simple model to play around with, but the tone of the article made me smile. I need more friends like this author! Thank you for taking the (excessive) amount of time to write this and overcoming the urge to polish out all the "imperfections".

meowing 6y ago
I know, right? I had the same reaction to the article, makes me miss fun intellectual conversations in college.
hnarayanan 6y ago
Her discussions on Twitter and the sorts of people who hang out and talk there are sort of a simulation of this friend set. :)

eyelidlessness 6y ago

For folks finding this model/analysis compelling: many of these observations and coping skills are common in undiagnosed ADHD. It’s not a perfect circle venn diagram, but pretty close. Any kind of paralysis without progressive validation or structured achievement is very likely associated with dopamine release and absorption. In adult-diagnosed ADHD cases, we often find ourselves discovering cleverly invented milestones and achievements or even convenient self deceptions that produce dopamine when it would naturally be a long way away. Speaking for myself, I allow myself personal congratulations and merits for utterly insignificant and pointless details for any task that feels “too big” or “too daunting” to make them achievable for my brain. I can take several hours to get my laundry going, a couple minutes work in all, and I allow myself to celebrate getting the dirty laundry into a basket, then another getting it into the laundry room. Usually by this point following through is automatic and doesn’t require more workarounds. But ultimately the concept is the same. If the reward feels far away, and far away is demotivating, giving yourself rewards along the way opens pathways to keep going when it doesn’t feel feasible otherwise.

porknubbins 6y ago
I thought I came up with the idea of attaching symbolic importance to otherwise menial tasks so I can complete them. Things like mail, paperwork, printing materials I make up some kind of scenario where completing the task is of critical importance and reward myself somehow after. I don’t otherwise recognize myself as ADHD though. I think rather its odd people can easily interrupt their day to do this stuff.
- eyelidlessness 6y ago
  I didn’t recognize myself as ADHD either. I was diagnosed at 37. If I hadn’t taken a (seemingly separate) mental health dive I probably would never have known. It turns out almost all of my anxiety and quite a bit of my depression are easily traced to dopamine deficiency and (sometimes unhealthy) coping strategies. The way I explain the laundry thing to people who don’t experience it is... almost exactly your wording: if I have a “big” task and a “small” task that have time overlap, stopping the “big” one to do even a few minutes of something else is extraordinarily stressful. I can’t interrupt one for the other. On really bad days, both block each other, like a deadlock. Recognizing that it’s happening and creating basically fictional arbitrary rewards helps. Obviously I’m not in any way qualified to say one way or the other, but if things like this meaningfully impede your life I’d recommend reading about adult ADHD, see if things feel like they have explanations you’ve never known you needed... and if you do, seek diagnosis. For my experience when I finally had enough confidence that there was really something to it, I had to read a lot of non-diagnostic literature to really understand how to navigate that process. The DSM criteria are almost entirely designed around diagnosing children, and almost entirely around misbehavior. Adults will not relate to most behavior descriptions and will have developed so many coping alternatives that the answers often form as “well, no, but here is how I’ve learned to compensate”. Edit: I’d be remiss not to credit the actual human on the internet who gave me the most insight into this and ultimately prompted me to seek diagnosis. For anyone looking for someone who speaks extensively and knowledgeably about adult ADHD, I highly recommend following Erynn Brook on twitter.
  - burntoutfire 6y ago

tardismechanic 6y ago

Perfection does not exist in the universe. Imperfections can be found in anything. Enjoying the process, while fully embracing this realization, is key.

Slackwise 6y ago
Math is perfection. So, it depends on if you consider math to "exist" in this world.
- rytill 6y ago
  Not meaning to infringe on the unassailable beauty of mathematics, but the statement that it is “perfect” requires some qualification. Something like “it achieves exactly what it sets out to do?” Given your definition of perfection and why math fits it, is there anything else that fits the definition?
- scsilver 6y ago
  Is math the result of a process or is it the framework of the processes themselves.
- necovek 6y ago
  Don't you consider presence of axioms exactly the opposite of perfection? Instead, it's the best human mind can muster.
wiz21c 6y ago
perfectionism can be seen as the search to perfection or the fear of making suboptimal result...

rwnspace 6y ago

Someone suggested making minor mistakes on purpose to me a while ago, and it turned out to be a pretty interesting kind of pain to lean into~ There's a typo near the end of the post, which made me smile - my first thought was that it was left in intentionally. I recommend following the author's lead. Like any treatment, it's no panacea, but by god was it liberating, and I'm not entirely disabled by perfectionism these days :)

willemlabu 6y ago
The ~ made me smile.

IfOnlyYouKnew 6y ago

I find this now commonly believed and endlessly repeated idea that procrastination is primarily due to perfectionism... maybe a little too convenient? As in: it's almost like those jokes about interview answers: "What's your biggest weakness" / "I work too much". It it helps people to cope and build some self-confidence then, maybe, it's the mistake that is net-positive. Sort-of like the (apocryphal) story that Columbus made a mistake and believed India to be much closer to Europe, and wouldn't have attempted to cross the Atlantic otherwise. But my default position would be that any such delusional thought patterns tend to hurt. This, specifically, also has the ugly implication that anybody getting stuff done is sloppy and/or otherwise not at the genius level it takes to never do anything right. (Spoken as someone who should be working instead of arguing on HN)

jamestimmins 6y ago
I think it's only too convenient if you view perfectionism as people wanting to do great work or nothing. In reality, I experience it more as "unless I can make this work perfectly, it's gonna be crap so it isn't worth it." So it's less procrastination, and more paralysis.
eyelidlessness 6y ago
Completely independent of my comment about ADHD... whatever fictions we need to tell ourselves to function well are only damaging if they mask or enable other dysfunction. If people thrive by believing there’s a god or a magnetic force or lucky numbers, it only hurts if there’s some other harm done. I know we nerds like to focus on metrics and evidence. But the evidence is mixed on self deception.
birdsbirdsbirds 6y ago
>the genius level it takes to never do anything right A Freudian slip? Perfectionism is a deeper curse than procrastination. Procrastination can just be laziness, but like Alcoholism, if you cannot stop it, then you have a problem, and then it could be perfectionism. Perfectionism is not perfection, like Socialism is not social.
Fumtumi 6y ago

Fumtumi 6y ago

It also doesn't help to be a software engineer which task it is to do things which multiply. It also doesn't help that we are now so much more connected. I don't write software for one person. I often write it for Teams or customers and im efficient when i can automate things. I do see this every day when i see people or processies and i think very often how inefficient it is. Concept of good old mail: "useless". Takes ages, a human being has to sort it and has to bring it to you. Or a lot of jobs like all things a computer could do better and faster if we removed humans inbetween and added trust. My mind tries to analyse things on a meta level which also leads to thoughts of relevance. I'm probably a nihilist for a reason. My Mantras for the last few years are about the 'normal' things. Like trying out a new recipe . And at the end of the day, i realize more and more that simple logic isn't working and my influence is very small; Now instead of trying to change something i can't change on a meta level, my goal now is to get away from this all. I'm wandering through a mist of clarity as everyone else to arrive at the same end: death.

luord 6y ago

This resonates with me far, far more than most, if not all, articles, essays, think pieces, etc, about getting things done and procrastination I've ever read. Indeed, I have a serious problem with wanting to have something be perfect when I do it, so often I don't feel like doing it. Ironically, that attitude has the result of sometimes making my work worse, since ultimately I end up having less time to do the work which can lead to sloppy results. I'll now have that nitpicky attitude in check and remind myself that not completely perfect merge/pull requests are still work that my clients can see, and the feedback loop within them when they're not perfect from the get go doesn't necessarily have a downside, and can in fact improve communication and the flow of work. After all, a request is by definition not necessarily the work completed, but literally a request for feedback, and possibly iterating on the work already done. I can even use a trick to mentally tell myself it doesn't have to be perfect: I can start work everyday with the expectation that, at the end, I only need to create or update a draft merge/pull request. That will get me even more easily into the mindset that I'm working to ask for feedback, not to deliver the final piece. Who knows, maybe by the end of the day the work will be good enough for a finished request, so it's a win-win situation. And that's just one idea, that I need to put in action. I'll see how it goes.