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The Hyperloop’s Only Destination Is a Capitalist Hellscape
- throwaway2048 6y agoThe fact that the hyperloop is not a train is by far its most important feature. We have reasonable cost estimates for trains, with a new unproven technology, you can make any cost estimates you want. But its all a shell game, the hyperloop has every constraint a train does (and more!), and will inevitably, at the very least be exactly as expensive. This is an old game, I'm sure everyone remembers The Simpson's monorail episode. http://www.cat-bus.com/2017/12/gadgetbahn/ http://www.cat-bus.com/2017/12/gadgetbahn/
- input_sh 6y agoI'm not quite sure it's possible for a vacuum tube to cost less than some steel for a train track. I guess it could be cheaper to build it under a city (tunnel needs to be smaller), but anywhere else... highly doubt it. Plus, you know, trains are faster, more comfortable, have sleeper cabins, quieter, easier to stop in an emergency, and even have windows! Hyperloop is basically Musk's dislike for sharing space with other people. Some of them might even be murderers, to put it in his words.
- maxharris 6y agoI disagree. I think there is a profoundly bright future to be had with hyperloops, powered by a mix of solar and fusion energy. That being said, I do believe that there are a lot of challenges to resolve along the way. * how do we halt the release of methane from the arctic and prevent the death of the North Atlantic Current (NAC)? * how do we make online education even better and as close to free of cost as possible? * how do we restore trust in government and media? * how do we free people from crushing debt, whether it be from student loans or medicine? * how do we change the physical layout of communities so they are no longer structured around the automobile, but instead are built for remote work and raising children at home? * how do we rapidly grow the housing stock, so that everyone has a place to live? Solving these problems (and the many I have neglected to mention) is a difficult challenge, to be sure. I am certain of one thing though: clean technology and honestly earned wealth are our friends here, not our enemies. A lot of great jobs will be made constructing the infrastructure required to make all this stuff happen.
- throwaway2048 6y agoHow does the hyperloop solve any of these problems in a better way than an already proven technology, trains.
- maxharris 6y agoThe hyperloop can go at the speed of a plane, using very little energy. High-speed is high-throughput. Trains aren't even in the same ballpark.
- vkou 6y agoThe article's author agrees with you that there may be a bright future for Hyperloop replacing air travel. The author believes that the (technical AND political) challenges to resolve along the way are so substantial, that you're not going to see them solved until 2200. The author then points out that all the firms working on building one seem to operate more like Theranos, or Bernie Madoff's investment firm, and less like Tesla or SpaceX.
- hungryhobo 6y agoyou mean profoundly bright future for fusion energy... i mean if we had that, we can probably have things 10x nicer than hyperloops
- maxharris 6y agoFour links, all about MIT's Dennis Whyte and Commonwealth Fusion Systems: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/29/climate/nuclear-fusion-reactor.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/29/climate/nuclear-fusion-re... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkpqA8yG9T4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkpqA8yG9T4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY6U4wB-oYM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY6U4wB-oYM https://cfs.energy/ https://cfs.energy/
- hungryhobo 6y agoi'm not saying fusion isn't gonna work, I'm saying that i believe fusion to be a much more difficult and fundamental innovation that if realized, will impact our society much more than hyperloop.
- https443 6y agoIs public money going toward this? If not, why do you care how a private individual uses their money?
- cma 6y agoWaste is waste.
- recursive 6y agoTrue, but is waste bad?
- WJW 6y agoIn the extreme long term, humans will have died out and everything that was ever done will turn out to have been "waste". That said, I don't feel bad about doing things that make me feel good and/or are interesting. People can do hyperloops if they want.
- dragonwriter 6y ago> Is public money going toward this? Pretty much all the private investment in hyperloops is to get to the point of selling it for public infrastructure projects (it was originally proposed as an alternative specifically to California High Speed Rail), so, while the answer is mostly “no” in the strict present sense of “is”, it's also “yes” in the sense of the intended goal of the projects.
- mixedCase 6y agoThat just sounds like risk-free R&D, where the people's money only goes there once the idea has been proven by someone else, with no loss for the state if it goes nowhere near our interests.
- dragonwriter 6y agoExcept in the real world, the “getting ready” from day one isn't just R&D but also propaganda. You counter the propaganda so it doesn't soften the ground for waste of public funds.
- sillysaurusx 6y agoMany years ago, when Hyperloop's design was first announced, tlb pointed out that steel expands during summer, and that the expansion from SF to LA was roughly 400m (if I remember correctly) over a so-and-so temperature difference during summer. Where does the steel go? I'm not sure there's been a satisfactory answer to that question. Expansion joints are very hard when you need to maintain a vacuum.
- bodhiandpysics1 6y agoThis isn't actually a problem! We build gas pipelines all the time which suffer exactly the same problem. (and no, you don't want gas pipelines to leak!) You can use expansion joints, or grooved couplings that enable movement, and there are other solutions as well. I think the problem that people have is that they assume you need some really intense vacuum for hyperloop to work. .05 bar (the pressure at 60,000 ft) is fine, and so is some leakage into the pipeline, which you just have to pump out.
- bigbubba 6y agoNormal pipelines handle large amounts of thermal expansion in a way fundamentally incompatible with hyperloops: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-oil-pipelines-have-so-many-seemingly-unnecessary-bends https://www.quora.com/Why-do-oil-pipelines-have-so-many-seem... https://duckduckgo.com/?q=expansion+loop&iax=images&ia=images https://duckduckgo.com/?q=expansion+loop&iax=images&ia=image...
- pas 6y agoWhy would that be fundamentally incompatible?
- CyberDildonics 6y agoThe tube could sit on rollers and/or the expansion could go into pushing arcs out slightly more. There are probably a lot of solutions. It doesn't necessarily need to be a perfect vacuum. The less air in the tube, the less resistance there will be. I would guess there would be vacuum pumps constantly taking air out of it.
- OldHand2018 6y ago> The company celebrated the achievement by releasing a modest video comparing it to, among other things, the moment the Wright Brothers flew the first planes. Just so everyone knows, the Wright Brothers became well-known in the aviation community based on their work developing and flying gliders and inventing the 3-axis control system. Once they actually started flying powered airplanes, they became secretive and everyone stopped believing them, considering them to be complete frauds. A few people saw them fly in Kitty Hawk. A few dozen people saw them fly in Ohio with new and refined designs, etc. But still they were ignored. It was only a few years later, in France, that they blew everyone's mind with a completely new design and started flying around Paris. They got the credit for flying in Kitty Hawk retroactively. You don't want your product to be compared to the Wright Brothers and the first flight!
- syntaxing 6y agoNot only that, if I recall correctly the Wright brothers actually died penniless. They tried patenting and protecting their flight controls idea which is to rotate the wings. It was impractical and inefficient so never really got anywhere. It wasn't until Germany creating a mature aileron system which really pushed flight technology forward (the pressure of War and military helps a lot too).
- OldHand2018 6y agoI think that's correct. However, the concept of banking the plane to turn was their idea and is still used. Before that, everyone thought you'd turn a plane like you turn a car. It was their bicycle experience that led them in the right direction.
- opo 6y ago>...Not only that, if I recall correctly the Wright brothers actually died penniless. I don't think that is true. Wilbur died in 1912 in the middle of the patent disputes. >...Orville made his last flight as a pilot in 1918 in a 1911 Model B. He retired from business and became an elder statesman of aviation, serving on various official boards and committees, including the National Advisory Committee for Aeronautics (NACA), predecessor agency to the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) and Aeronautical Chamber of Commerce (ACCA), predecessor to the Aerospace Industries Association (AIA). >...Orville Wright served NACA for 28 years. In 1930, he received the first Daniel Guggenheim Medal established in 1928 by the Daniel Guggenheim Fund for the Promotion of Aeronautics. In 1936, he was elected a member of the National Academy of Sciences. >...They tried patenting and protecting their flight controls idea which is to rotate the wings. It was impractical and inefficient so never really got anywhere. >...In January 1914, a U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals upheld the verdict against the Curtiss company, which continued to avoid penalties through legal tactics. Orville apparently felt vindicated by the decision, and much to the frustration of company executives, he did not push vigorously for further legal action to ensure a manufacturing monopoly. In fact, he was planning to sell the company and departed in 1915. In 1917, with World War I underway, the U.S. government pressured the industry to form a cross-licensing organization, the Manufacturers Aircraft Association, to which member companies paid a blanket fee for the use of aviation patents, including the original and subsequent Wright patents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wright_brothers
- nickff 6y agoThis article is completely lacking in historical perspective. There was a time when commercial aviation was a luxury reserved for the rich; one need only look at the configurations of aircraft like the DC-2 and the Boeing 317 to understand that. Between 1935 and 2020, flight became a tool to help enrich the lives of masses of middle-class people. The hyperloop has a relatively small chance of positively impacting many people's lives, and possibly making medium-distance transportation more energy efficient; it's not a sure thing, but it would be wonderful if it works.
- viburnum 6y agoThis would be a good analogy if in 1935 commercial aviation had already existed for 50 years.
- nickff 6y ago>" This would be a good analogy if in 1935 commercial aviation had already existed for 50 years." Battery-powered electric vehicles have existed for over 100 years, and photovoltaic solar cells have existed for over 60 years, but both have really changed over the last 5, 10, and 20! Sometimes technologies can undergo major shifts due to external forces.
- aqme28 6y agoI don't follow your analogy. How is this to the train what the plane was to an oceanic voyage?
- nickff 6y agoI don't really have a direct analogy (possibly due to a lack of 'vision'); I just think that changing technology can create 'paradigm shifts' in access and capabilities.
- smogcutter 6y agoIt would be a better analogy if the changing technology weren’t “it’s like a train except for fewer people and also it costs more”.
- hosteur 6y agoI’ll just leave this here https://youtu.be/RNFesa01llk https://youtu.be/RNFesa01llk
- mixedCase 6y agoI read the entire article just to find its underlying foundation rearing its ugly head near its end: > Maybe we’ll even have a line in the U.S. that Wall Street execs and DC lobbyists will use to blast up and down the Eastern Seaboard for business lunches. But you and me? We’ll be stuck on dilapidated Amtrak lines[...] > our only consolation the fact that the hyperloop’s vacuum-sealed tubes don’t have windows, so its riders won’t be able to gawk or gloat as they fly by at 800 miles per hour. AKA "This is for rich people! And rich people having things I can't have is bad!" I'm middle class in a third world country and electric vehicles coming into the mainstream make me excited for the future of public and private transportation, but I guess I should feel bad instead because rich people get vacuum tubes. When and where did this line of thought of "it's better for everyone to stay the same than everyone get better if some people get better by a bigger amount" started being socially acceptable within grown adults?
- JumpCrisscross 6y agoBased on this article's argument cars, planes and paintings are a travesty.
- tonywastaken 6y agoWhen do you anticipate electric vehicles will become mainstream in your country?
- CyberDildonics 6y agoElectric buses are mainstream in china.
- bigbubba 6y agoElectric buses are mainstream in America, they drive past my home a dozen times a day. Of course they pull their power from overhead powerlines, but I'd guess that makes them better at handling hills and has less downtime.
- tonywastaken 6y ago
- vangelis 6y agoMaybe that capitalist hellscape will add solar freakin' roadways while they're at it.
- pstuart 6y agoMore solar is good, but we have space for it elsewhere. It's cheaper and easier to have roads be "plain old roads".
- bigbubba 6y agoI think that's the point. The 'technology' seems optimized for creating hype on reddit, not actually being commercially viable.
- pstuart 6y agoIf it worked readily/economically enough as envisioned the hype would be well justified. Solar roadways only value add is "we found more space to put panels" and that's not a serious problem as there's plenty of space for that. Roads are already costly and this would just make it worse.
- bigbubba 6y agoI think the hype comes mostly from credulous futurists who love the sci-fi aesthetic, not from people who actually think critically about the potential of the technology. It takes a serious suspension of critical thinking to believe roads made out of solar panels isn't a really dumb idea.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- aqme28 6y agoI know there are a lot of Musk fans on this site, so can someone explain to me the benefits of this style of hyperloop over a train?
- WJW 6y agoThey're faster. That's pretty much the entire attraction.
- plorkyeran 6y agoThey might theoretically be faster eventually. Currently they're significantly slower than existing production rail lines.
- ortusdux 6y agoI still think that Elon's dream goal is to put a boring machine into a rocket and build subsurface habitations connected by hyperloops on mars.
- Barrin92 6y agoAbsolutely on point. One thing I find particularly interesting about technologies of this kind is that they're often sold as 'the future of X', in this case transport. Just like Zoom is the 'future of doing conferences and work'. Has anyone noticed in recent times that this is almost always the American future, rather than everyone else's future, in response to essentially rot of public infrastructure and state capacity? Go to China, or Singapore, Or Taiwan or South Korea and ask them if their future is work from home because of Covid, or hyperloops because apparently nobody in the US can built a train any more. You'll be surprised.
- ketzo 6y ago“we are the future of X” === “X is observably a $Y billion total market today, so invest in us at 25x revenue”
- Severian 6y agoThe fact that one high-caliber bullet can shut down a multi-billion dollar transport system is all that needs to be said. It's a silly idea and is best made on the Moon or Mars where atmospheric pressure is already low enough to not cause catastrophic failure.
- bigbubba 6y agoIncidentally, regular trains getting shot at in America is not uncommon. Apparently Boeing has to check fuselages shipped by rail for bullet holes, because that happens..
- uhtred 6y ago>It’s entirely possible that in our lifetimes the oil and gas billionaires in Saudi Arabia will be able to shoot themselves in tiny designer-branded pods with heated leather seats from one side of the Kingdom to the other. I can see the Louis Vitton seats from here.
- beervirus 6y ago> end-state death-cult capitalism that the American ruling class believes in Who writes this garbage?
- uhtred 6y agoWhy did this post get removed?
- Lramseyer 6y agoOne issue with the hyperloop that nobody seems to talk about is safety. How do you handle ruptures in the tube? How do you evacuate? and What do you do if your pod loses pressure? This isn't like a 737 where you can give people oxygen while you drop to 10,000 feet when you lose pressure. That only works because at 35,000 ft the pressure is still high enough that you can breathe a higher concentration of oxygen for a short period of time, and not get hypoxia or decompression sickness. Sure, you can add safety re-pressurization valves and escape hatches, but all of those seals are points of failure that need to be inspected and maintained across the entire length of the tube.
- bassman9000 6y agoJapan has 1700 miles of high-speed train lines that can go up to 200 mph. Am I missing something? Isn't the hyperloop supposed to target aircraft speeds (+600 mph)? Does the author really not understand it wouldn't be competing with trains?