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That is the Rule of Law at play. Now, I am not saying that the US or the EU are exemplars of it. But at least...

by pfortuny 6y ago

brobinson 6y ago
The PRC has rule _by_ law not rule _of_ law. There's an enormous difference.
cynusx 6y ago
In what world is this the rule of law and not just arbitrary bullying of the ruling elite?
- Udik 6y ago
  Afaik, the Chinese government is worried because of the size of the debt managed by Ant (45 billion) in comparison to their own capital (450 million, 1%). The whole risk is offloaded to good old banks which are then exposed to an excessive risk. The government is planning to change the law to set a minimum threshold of 30% of capital over managed debt, and this is the reason the IPO was withdrawn: the law is about to be made much more stringent and this changes the valuation of the company entirely.
  - freewizard 6y ago
    This aligns with what I've heard, and it's not surprising for Chinese govt to let an industry grow by itself then suddenly put a hard brake on it by imposing a set rules with its heavy hands. The difference is this time the victim is much larger and visible than anyone in the past. This mode of operation was not started by Xi, but no doubt Xi's gov't made it less transparent and more brutal to the business and investors.
    - 8note 6y ago
      That sounds like general government? Is this different from banning lead from gasoline?
  - cynusx 6y ago
    Sure but there's a difference between what a government said why they did it and why they actually did it. The regulator could have stepped in a year ago rather then a few days after Jack Ma's comments.
prewett 6y ago
I'm assuming by "this" you mean "Ant's IPO gets shut down because of Ma's comments". This "rule by law", which is different. In rule of law, the king is bound by the law. In rule by law, the king decides which law you broke and prosecutes you for it.
MattGaiser 6y ago
> The ‘rule of law’ … refers to a principle of governance in which all persons, institutions and entities, public and private … are accountable to laws that are publicly promulgated, equally enforced and independently adjudicated https://www.lexisnexis.ca/en-ca/about-us/rule-of-law.page#:~:text=Rule%20of%20Law%20Defined&text=refers%20to%20a%20principle%20of,human%20rights%20norms%20and%20standards https://www.lexisnexis.ca/en-ca/about-us/rule-of-law.page#:~....
mhh__ 6y ago
> Now, I am not saying that the US or the EU are exemplars of it. Although some in the US clearly don't like it, even the most major transgressions from that principle in the west are fairly minor - the rule of law prevails.
- ClumsyPilot 6y ago
  We've sent teachers to jail for giving students fake grades, but not bankers that gave fake AAA ratings to mortgate swaps. I consider crashing global economy to be pretty major, they've literally got blood on their hands.
  - smabie 6y ago
    Bankers never gave triple A ratings to shitty securities, the ratings agencies did. Crucially, ratings agencies aren't banks and the people who work their aren't bankers. But you are correct that the ratings agencies were quite negligent.
  - mhh__ 6y ago
    Consider that Madoff did go to prison though. As the son of a Marxist I'm not blinkered, but I still don't think I've ever heard a specific hit-list of who should've actually been prosecuted? The problem seems more structural than a casual description can convey?
    - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
      Best I can tell Madoff was unrelated to the actual subprime mortgage crisis. While I agree that there were structural problems, we can't just allow diffusion of responsibility[0] to escalate to the point that you can commit manslaughter and get away with it. (737 Max says hi) Especially since you can purposefully organise a company to maximise confusion as to who, if anyone, was responsible. As for "a specific hit-list" - it's not gonna appear by itself, the rating agencies are a good place to start, but you have to actually investigate and subponea documents. As far as I can tell, that work has not been done with anything like the vigour and resources it deserved - we just found a couple low-level scapegoats and called it a day.[1] [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility#:~:text=Diffusion%20of%20responsibility%20is%20a,bystanders%20or%20witnesses%20are%20present https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility#:~.... [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating_agencies_and_the_subprime_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating_agencies_and_the...

That is the Rule of Law at play. Now, I am not saying that the US or the EU are exemplars of it. But at least...

brobinson 6y ago

The PRC has rule _by_ law not rule _of_ law. There's an enormous difference.

cynusx 6y ago

In what world is this the rule of law and not just arbitrary bullying of the ruling elite?

Udik 6y ago
Afaik, the Chinese government is worried because of the size of the debt managed by Ant (45 billion) in comparison to their own capital (450 million, 1%). The whole risk is offloaded to good old banks which are then exposed to an excessive risk. The government is planning to change the law to set a minimum threshold of 30% of capital over managed debt, and this is the reason the IPO was withdrawn: the law is about to be made much more stringent and this changes the valuation of the company entirely.
- freewizard 6y ago
  This aligns with what I've heard, and it's not surprising for Chinese govt to let an industry grow by itself then suddenly put a hard brake on it by imposing a set rules with its heavy hands. The difference is this time the victim is much larger and visible than anyone in the past. This mode of operation was not started by Xi, but no doubt Xi's gov't made it less transparent and more brutal to the business and investors.
  - 8note 6y ago
    That sounds like general government? Is this different from banning lead from gasoline?
- cynusx 6y ago
  Sure but there's a difference between what a government said why they did it and why they actually did it. The regulator could have stepped in a year ago rather then a few days after Jack Ma's comments.

prewett 6y ago

I'm assuming by "this" you mean "Ant's IPO gets shut down because of Ma's comments". This "rule by law", which is different. In rule of law, the king is bound by the law. In rule by law, the king decides which law you broke and prosecutes you for it.

MattGaiser 6y ago

> The ‘rule of law’ … refers to a principle of governance in which all persons, institutions and entities, public and private … are accountable to laws that are publicly promulgated, equally enforced and independently adjudicated https://www.lexisnexis.ca/en-ca/about-us/rule-of-law.page#:~:text=Rule%20of%20Law%20Defined&text=refers%20to%20a%20principle%20of,human%20rights%20norms%20and%20standards https://www.lexisnexis.ca/en-ca/about-us/rule-of-law.page#:~....

mhh__ 6y ago

> Now, I am not saying that the US or the EU are exemplars of it. Although some in the US clearly don't like it, even the most major transgressions from that principle in the west are fairly minor - the rule of law prevails.

ClumsyPilot 6y ago
We've sent teachers to jail for giving students fake grades, but not bankers that gave fake AAA ratings to mortgate swaps. I consider crashing global economy to be pretty major, they've literally got blood on their hands.
- smabie 6y ago
  Bankers never gave triple A ratings to shitty securities, the ratings agencies did. Crucially, ratings agencies aren't banks and the people who work their aren't bankers. But you are correct that the ratings agencies were quite negligent.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Consider that Madoff did go to prison though. As the son of a Marxist I'm not blinkered, but I still don't think I've ever heard a specific hit-list of who should've actually been prosecuted? The problem seems more structural than a casual description can convey?
  - ClumsyPilot 6y ago
    Best I can tell Madoff was unrelated to the actual subprime mortgage crisis. While I agree that there were structural problems, we can't just allow diffusion of responsibility[0] to escalate to the point that you can commit manslaughter and get away with it. (737 Max says hi) Especially since you can purposefully organise a company to maximise confusion as to who, if anyone, was responsible. As for "a specific hit-list" - it's not gonna appear by itself, the rating agencies are a good place to start, but you have to actually investigate and subponea documents. As far as I can tell, that work has not been done with anything like the vigour and resources it deserved - we just found a couple low-level scapegoats and called it a day.[1] [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility#:~:text=Diffusion%20of%20responsibility%20is%20a,bystanders%20or%20witnesses%20are%20present https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility#:~.... [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating_agencies_and_the_subprime_crisis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credit_rating_agencies_and_the...