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For comparison, here is Google's transparency report: https://transparencyreport.google.com/?hl=en https://transparencyreport.google.com/?hl=en Comparing US re

by pkage 6y ago

For comparison, here is Google's transparency report: https://transparencyreport.google.com/?hl=en https://transparencyreport.google.com/?hl=en Comparing US results it seems like Apple has served ~4x fewer requests vs. Google (10197 for Apple and 38042 for Google) in a six month period.

dheera 6y ago
> Device requests are based on device identifiers such as Apple serial number, IMEI or MEID. At least for the device part, if you use an open source OS like LineageOS, you can fake all of these things so that it's not even a question. One of the biggest privacy disadvantages of iOS is that Apple maintains total control over the system and therefore they can be compelled by governments to serve these requests, whereas on my "Google" phone I can actually prevent Google from being able to serve them. Sure, the default OS Google supplies may track the hell out of you, but at least you have the option to load your own OS onto the device. I find it extremely annoying that Apple continues to play the "we're the good guys" card while there is absolutely no data on how Apple themselves track and use your personal data. I would much prefer the system itself were designed such that you have the ability to restrict data collection from even Apple themselves, and that there is clear proof of that fact.
- oneplane 6y ago
  That argument is getting old. Yes, you could do those things, but can you do that for billions of people? Going back to the "you don't own your computer"-post from yesterday (or the day before?): it's not simply a matter of 'the big bar corp did it', users that do not or cannot understand technology to a degree that they can also control it generally don't have this choice at all. And for people that do have that choice, you also have to choose the ecosystem (be it social or technical). Plenty of people seem to stay on facebook for the same reason. It's not because it's good, it's because that's where the critical mass is.
  - dheera 6y ago
    Yes, you can. At some point regulation does need to step in and keep corporations in check. You probably buy food from a restaurant or food ingredients from a grocery store. You don't have to buy food -- you can grow it or hunt it yourself. But there are laws around food labels for a reason.
    - oneplane 6y ago
      You can from a physical point of view, but that's not what I was talking about; I was talking about ownership, and how you can't really talk about owning something if you don't know what it _is_ what you think you might want to own. No amount of regulation will fix that. At the same time you do of course need to have a select group of people that are specialised to deal with this 'for the many', which is where you get government and regulation. But that's just an parallel path to a solution, not something that will 'repair' the lack of understanding from the users. That's not to say that it used to be better or something; when you needed to know how electronics work to be able to buy, install, operate and maintain a basic radio it wasn't very widely usable. (but at least the users knew enough to 'own' their stuff)
exacube 6y ago
Maybe Apple users are more honest :P or maybe there are 4x more Androids than iPhones
- coddle-hark 6y ago
  I’d guess it’s because Apple customers also use Google products.
  - chungus_khan 6y ago
    That, and Google's products are all data mines, so the Google stuff is probably much juicier.
    - coddle-hark 6y ago
      Oh no, the terrorists use iPhones so now we can only get access to their location, iMessages, photos, browsing history, credit cards and all purchases made through Apple Pay. Might as well not bother sending a request at all.
  - ehsankia 6y ago
    That's right, the Venn diagram of Google users includes almost all Android users, a big chunk of Apple users, and even more too. In general I would assume there are at least 2x more Google users than Apple users, and even bigger disparity if you look worldwide. In the US I believe Android/iOS is 50/50, but worldwide it's close to 80/20.
- PascLeRasc 6y ago
  I think it's partly based on the typical iPhone user [1] being policed less [2]. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/toddhixon/2014/04/10/what-kind-of-person-prefers-an-iphone/?sh=75868b53d1b0 https://www.forbes.com/sites/toddhixon/2014/04/10/what-kind-... [2] https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-link-between-money-and-aggressive-policing https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-link-between-mo...
jonas21 6y ago
It looks like you're including preservation requests in the Google number; Apple doesn't report these. If you only look at requests for user information, the numbers are 10,197 for Apple and 26,186 for Google. Interestingly, the rate at which both end up turning over data is nearly identical (85% for Apple and 83% for Google). --- EDIT: nostromo points out that Apple does report the preservation request numbers in a separate section on the detail page. So inclusive of preservation requests, the comparison would be 12,719 for Apple and 38,042 for Google. However, I think Apple is right in not including these in the main number since preservation requests are asking the companies to preserve data that they might otherwise delete in anticipation of a future data request -- which would be counted.
- nostromo 6y ago
  Apple included preservation requests on the US details page: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html

by pkage 6y ago

dheera 6y ago

> Device requests are based on device identifiers such as Apple serial number, IMEI or MEID. At least for the device part, if you use an open source OS like LineageOS, you can fake all of these things so that it's not even a question. One of the biggest privacy disadvantages of iOS is that Apple maintains total control over the system and therefore they can be compelled by governments to serve these requests, whereas on my "Google" phone I can actually prevent Google from being able to serve them. Sure, the default OS Google supplies may track the hell out of you, but at least you have the option to load your own OS onto the device. I find it extremely annoying that Apple continues to play the "we're the good guys" card while there is absolutely no data on how Apple themselves track and use your personal data. I would much prefer the system itself were designed such that you have the ability to restrict data collection from even Apple themselves, and that there is clear proof of that fact.

oneplane 6y ago
That argument is getting old. Yes, you could do those things, but can you do that for billions of people? Going back to the "you don't own your computer"-post from yesterday (or the day before?): it's not simply a matter of 'the big bar corp did it', users that do not or cannot understand technology to a degree that they can also control it generally don't have this choice at all. And for people that do have that choice, you also have to choose the ecosystem (be it social or technical). Plenty of people seem to stay on facebook for the same reason. It's not because it's good, it's because that's where the critical mass is.
- dheera 6y ago
  Yes, you can. At some point regulation does need to step in and keep corporations in check. You probably buy food from a restaurant or food ingredients from a grocery store. You don't have to buy food -- you can grow it or hunt it yourself. But there are laws around food labels for a reason.
  - oneplane 6y ago
    You can from a physical point of view, but that's not what I was talking about; I was talking about ownership, and how you can't really talk about owning something if you don't know what it _is_ what you think you might want to own. No amount of regulation will fix that. At the same time you do of course need to have a select group of people that are specialised to deal with this 'for the many', which is where you get government and regulation. But that's just an parallel path to a solution, not something that will 'repair' the lack of understanding from the users. That's not to say that it used to be better or something; when you needed to know how electronics work to be able to buy, install, operate and maintain a basic radio it wasn't very widely usable. (but at least the users knew enough to 'own' their stuff)

exacube 6y ago

Maybe Apple users are more honest :P or maybe there are 4x more Androids than iPhones

coddle-hark 6y ago
I’d guess it’s because Apple customers also use Google products.
- chungus_khan 6y ago
  That, and Google's products are all data mines, so the Google stuff is probably much juicier.
  - coddle-hark 6y ago
    Oh no, the terrorists use iPhones so now we can only get access to their location, iMessages, photos, browsing history, credit cards and all purchases made through Apple Pay. Might as well not bother sending a request at all.
- ehsankia 6y ago
  That's right, the Venn diagram of Google users includes almost all Android users, a big chunk of Apple users, and even more too. In general I would assume there are at least 2x more Google users than Apple users, and even bigger disparity if you look worldwide. In the US I believe Android/iOS is 50/50, but worldwide it's close to 80/20.
PascLeRasc 6y ago
I think it's partly based on the typical iPhone user [1] being policed less [2]. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/toddhixon/2014/04/10/what-kind-of-person-prefers-an-iphone/?sh=75868b53d1b0 https://www.forbes.com/sites/toddhixon/2014/04/10/what-kind-... [2] https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-link-between-money-and-aggressive-policing https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/the-link-between-mo...

jonas21 6y ago

It looks like you're including preservation requests in the Google number; Apple doesn't report these. If you only look at requests for user information, the numbers are 10,197 for Apple and 26,186 for Google. Interestingly, the rate at which both end up turning over data is nearly identical (85% for Apple and 83% for Google). --- EDIT: nostromo points out that Apple does report the preservation request numbers in a separate section on the detail page. So inclusive of preservation requests, the comparison would be 12,719 for Apple and 38,042 for Google. However, I think Apple is right in not including these in the main number since preservation requests are asking the companies to preserve data that they might otherwise delete in anticipation of a future data request -- which would be counted.

nostromo 6y ago
Apple included preservation requests on the US details page: https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html https://www.apple.com/legal/transparency/us.html