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I bet that expectation applies to writers, designers, and other creative jobs. I'm not sure what you consider the line is for "professional career." The test

by wikyd 15y ago

I bet that expectation applies to writers, designers, and other creative jobs. I'm not sure what you consider the line is for "professional career." The test probably does weed out good engineers, but I would rather have a test for employees that yields more false negatives than false positives. I know plenty of people with families that also code in their spare time as a hobby.

kenjackson 15y ago
I bet that expectation applies to writers, designers, and other creative jobs. I don't think so. I think programming is a weird mix because it is largely populated by somewhat awkward introverts. Writers I know do like to write, and write each day, but they're very scheduled. One of my friends says he writes six hours a day, if he wants to more or less. In part, I think other "creatives" value time among other humans. Whereas programmers tend not to value that as much. Plus programming had a weird dynamic where staying up late (or not sleeping) is something to have pride in. For other creatives -- inspiration and elegance seems to be something they take much more pride in, over brute hours on a task.
- _delirium 15y ago
  I agree it's not brute hours on a task, but most musician types I know do make it a significant focus of their lives. It's not just writing and recording during the day, but attending shows in their scene in the evenings, frequenting mailing lists, Usenet groups, and IRC channels, going to the right clubs, reading dozens of magazines, blogs, etc. in their spare time, listening to and reviewing others' albums, and so on. Being "a [genre] musician" is basically a full-time lifestyle.
  - kenjackson 15y ago
    Are these real pro musicians who derive 100% of their income from music? I ask because of those I know, most actually actively try to get away from the music scene when they can. OTOH, my neighbor who plays in the symphony (and is probably one of the best for her instrument in the US), plays music part time, because it can't pay the mortgage (at least not where she lives). She is a lot more into the lifestyle. It just seems like in other creative fields there's kind of a line between the pros vs the amateurs or hobbyists -- and how they spend their down time.
    - mnutt 15y ago
      It depends on the instrument, but most brass instruments require many hours a day of rote practice just to stay in shape if you're working professionally in a symphony. Also, many professional symphony musicians I know are in multiple side groups. (jazz bands, quartets, etc) I think there are actually some parallels with coding, though I don't believe orchestras take extra-curricular activities into account during auditions.
  - georgieporgie 15y ago
    For this analogy, I would like to point out that a musician attending a concert or chatting with fellow music nerds is equivalent to a programmer browsing /r/programming or having a beer with fellow programmer friends. It's a significantly lower-intensity activity than finishing a project.
Retric 15y ago
And I bet it's simply another form of age discrimination. People like to pretend that keeping up with the latest trends in computing takes a lot of time. But, mostly it's new people falling in love with old ideas. Consider, from a C background Ruby would seem extremely innovative, less so if you know C and python, and if you know C, python, and Lisp it's just not that novel. PS: Sometimes people are not exceeded about bulb because they have never heard of it. Other times they know more about it than you do and are simply not impressed by yet another remix of really old ideas.
- mkramlich 15y ago
  You nailed why I for one am not impressed/excited by Ruby. If the only language I had/knew before Ruby was say COBOL, Ruby would look like an orgasmic programming utopia. But if you have more experience under your belt, both with other languages, and with readability and long-term maintenance, then Ruby looks much less interesting. Not completely without interest/merits, just much less so.
- nostrademons 15y ago
  Someone who knows C, Python, and Lisp could probably talk fairly intelligently about Ruby even if they don't drink the Kool-Aid.

by wikyd 15y ago

kenjackson 15y ago

I bet that expectation applies to writers, designers, and other creative jobs. I don't think so. I think programming is a weird mix because it is largely populated by somewhat awkward introverts. Writers I know do like to write, and write each day, but they're very scheduled. One of my friends says he writes six hours a day, if he wants to more or less. In part, I think other "creatives" value time among other humans. Whereas programmers tend not to value that as much. Plus programming had a weird dynamic where staying up late (or not sleeping) is something to have pride in. For other creatives -- inspiration and elegance seems to be something they take much more pride in, over brute hours on a task.

_delirium 15y ago
I agree it's not brute hours on a task, but most musician types I know do make it a significant focus of their lives. It's not just writing and recording during the day, but attending shows in their scene in the evenings, frequenting mailing lists, Usenet groups, and IRC channels, going to the right clubs, reading dozens of magazines, blogs, etc. in their spare time, listening to and reviewing others' albums, and so on. Being "a [genre] musician" is basically a full-time lifestyle.
- kenjackson 15y ago
  Are these real pro musicians who derive 100% of their income from music? I ask because of those I know, most actually actively try to get away from the music scene when they can. OTOH, my neighbor who plays in the symphony (and is probably one of the best for her instrument in the US), plays music part time, because it can't pay the mortgage (at least not where she lives). She is a lot more into the lifestyle. It just seems like in other creative fields there's kind of a line between the pros vs the amateurs or hobbyists -- and how they spend their down time.
  - mnutt 15y ago
    It depends on the instrument, but most brass instruments require many hours a day of rote practice just to stay in shape if you're working professionally in a symphony. Also, many professional symphony musicians I know are in multiple side groups. (jazz bands, quartets, etc) I think there are actually some parallels with coding, though I don't believe orchestras take extra-curricular activities into account during auditions.
- georgieporgie 15y ago
  For this analogy, I would like to point out that a musician attending a concert or chatting with fellow music nerds is equivalent to a programmer browsing /r/programming or having a beer with fellow programmer friends. It's a significantly lower-intensity activity than finishing a project.

Retric 15y ago

And I bet it's simply another form of age discrimination. People like to pretend that keeping up with the latest trends in computing takes a lot of time. But, mostly it's new people falling in love with old ideas. Consider, from a C background Ruby would seem extremely innovative, less so if you know C and python, and if you know C, python, and Lisp it's just not that novel. PS: Sometimes people are not exceeded about bulb because they have never heard of it. Other times they know more about it than you do and are simply not impressed by yet another remix of really old ideas.

mkramlich 15y ago
You nailed why I for one am not impressed/excited by Ruby. If the only language I had/knew before Ruby was say COBOL, Ruby would look like an orgasmic programming utopia. But if you have more experience under your belt, both with other languages, and with readability and long-term maintenance, then Ruby looks much less interesting. Not completely without interest/merits, just much less so.
nostrademons 15y ago
Someone who knows C, Python, and Lisp could probably talk fairly intelligently about Ruby even if they don't drink the Kool-Aid.