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They do that stuff in their spare time - its not just a job, its what they do because they love it. Is there any other professional career where it's common pr

They do that stuff in their spare time - its not just a job, its what they do because they love it. Is there any other professional career where it's common practice to expect candidates to practice their profession in their spare time? My CPA ex never came home and crunched numbers for fun. My doctor never mentioned diagnosing his neighbors to relax. This seems like a self-deluded way to weed out people who have families, physical limitations or injuries that prompt them to get away from their computer, etc.

wikyd 16y ago
I bet that expectation applies to writers, designers, and other creative jobs. I'm not sure what you consider the line is for "professional career." The test probably does weed out good engineers, but I would rather have a test for employees that yields more false negatives than false positives. I know plenty of people with families that also code in their spare time as a hobby.
- kenjackson 16y ago
  I bet that expectation applies to writers, designers, and other creative jobs. I don't think so. I think programming is a weird mix because it is largely populated by somewhat awkward introverts. Writers I know do like to write, and write each day, but they're very scheduled. One of my friends says he writes six hours a day, if he wants to more or less. In part, I think other "creatives" value time among other humans. Whereas programmers tend not to value that as much. Plus programming had a weird dynamic where staying up late (or not sleeping) is something to have pride in. For other creatives -- inspiration and elegance seems to be something they take much more pride in, over brute hours on a task.
  - _delirium 16y ago
    I agree it's not brute hours on a task, but most musician types I know do make it a significant focus of their lives. It's not just writing and recording during the day, but attending shows in their scene in the evenings, frequenting mailing lists, Usenet groups, and IRC channels, going to the right clubs, reading dozens of magazines, blogs, etc. in their spare time, listening to and reviewing others' albums, and so on. Being "a [genre] musician" is basically a full-time lifestyle.
    - kenjackson 16y ago
      Are these real pro musicians who derive 100% of their income from music? I ask because of those I know, most actually actively try to get away from the music scene when they can. OTOH, my neighbor who plays in the symphony (and is probably one of the best for her instrument in the US), plays music part time, because it can't pay the mortgage (at least not where she lives). She is a lot more into the lifestyle. It just seems like in other creative fields there's kind of a line between the pros vs the amateurs or hobbyists -- and how they spend their down time.
      - mnutt 16y ago
        It depends on the instrument, but most brass instruments require many hours a day of rote practice just to stay in shape if you're working professionally in a symphony. Also, many professional symphony musicians I know are in multiple side groups. (jazz bands, quartets, etc) I think there are actually some parallels with coding, though I don't believe orchestras take extra-curricular activities into account during auditions.
    - georgieporgie 16y ago
      For this analogy, I would like to point out that a musician attending a concert or chatting with fellow music nerds is equivalent to a programmer browsing /r/programming or having a beer with fellow programmer friends. It's a significantly lower-intensity activity than finishing a project.
- Retric 16y ago
  And I bet it's simply another form of age discrimination. People like to pretend that keeping up with the latest trends in computing takes a lot of time. But, mostly it's new people falling in love with old ideas. Consider, from a C background Ruby would seem extremely innovative, less so if you know C and python, and if you know C, python, and Lisp it's just not that novel. PS: Sometimes people are not exceeded about bulb because they have never heard of it. Other times they know more about it than you do and are simply not impressed by yet another remix of really old ideas.
  - mkramlich 16y ago
    You nailed why I for one am not impressed/excited by Ruby. If the only language I had/knew before Ruby was say COBOL, Ruby would look like an orgasmic programming utopia. But if you have more experience under your belt, both with other languages, and with readability and long-term maintenance, then Ruby looks much less interesting. Not completely without interest/merits, just much less so.
  - nostrademons 16y ago
    Someone who knows C, Python, and Lisp could probably talk fairly intelligently about Ruby even if they don't drink the Kool-Aid.
quanticle 16y ago
True, a good doctor doesn't diagnose neighbors for fun, but she does read medical journals and keeps up on the latest in her specialty. And would you trust an auto mechanic who didn't change the oil on her own car?
- georgieporgie 16y ago
  she does read medical journals and keeps up on the latest in her specialty. 1) I don't know much about doctors' scheduling, but I've known a few that seemed to schedule a batch of patients, then hours for paperwork, document review, and peer review/help. So I wonder how much of this happens in their "free time". 2) There's a difference between reading up on new technologies versus creating a project and seeing it through to completion. Similarly, there is a difference between reading medical journals (study) versus seeing patients (practice). would you trust an auto mechanic who didn't change the oil on her own car? Absolutely. That's a very simple job, and if my mechanic can have it done for $20 at Walmart while he shops, it's well worth his time. If he's a good mechanic, he bills at, what, $70+ per hour? By the way, the mechanics I've known tend to drive inexpensive, late-model cars, and get rid of them after a few years. Why? Because they don't want to fix cars in their spare time.
  - bartonfink 16y ago
    I think the largest part of the fact that many mechanics drive inexpensive, late-model cars and get rid of them is the fact that inexpensive, late-model cars are more or less irreparable in a hobby setting. Things simply aren't mechanical anymore. Modern cars are so computerized and interconnected that you often can't just "fix" a broken part, you have to replace it. I'm sure a mechanic would be able to do the replacement if they had the part, but I imagine that takes a lot of the enjoyment out of being a mechanic. You could probably get around that by only buying cars that predate mass computerization (now 20+ years old), but then you're trading one problem for a potentially much larger set of problems. It's not that they might not want to fix cars - it's that it might not be worth it to indulge that activity as a hobby.
    - 16y ago
dkokelley 16y ago
I think a passion for your field or industry could show up in private life.However, some jobs are jobs because nobody wants to do them... even though they provide value. My dad works in the aerospace industry. Specifically outer space. His company builds rockets. And you know what? He LOVES outer space. He watches the ISS when it's visible over head, records the shuttle launches, and he browses the NASA app on his iPad, FOR FUN. You know what else? He's VERY good at his job. But then, some professions aren't necessarily fun. CPAs exist to remove a problem. It might not be the most glorious job, but it's a tough job that not everybody can do, so they are compensated well. I doubt they crunch numbers for fun. But you know what I'll bet they will do for fun, check up on the latest financial news.
- georgieporgie 16y ago
  Again, I believe there is an enormous difference between what you're citing as spare-time activities versus what a 'project' entails. Your dad seems to be engaging in activities which are relevant to his interest in aerospace, without actually involving what he does as 'work' each day. As I mentioned elsewhere, this is more on par with browsing /r/programming, skimming a book on a new programming language, or meeting with other tech-minded folks. In my opinion, this is very different from completing a software project.
  - jamii 16y ago
    > I believe there is an enormous difference between what you're citing as spare-time activities versus what a 'project' entails. Sometimes I have clients with interesting projects but 90% of the time my day job is stirring enterprise soup. I fix bugs, write documentation and make responsible engineering decisions. My side projects have no tests, no documentation and no comments. I write fun stuff like chat bots that mess with 419 scammers or p2p chat protocols. I get to enjoy all the fun parts of programming without the real-world constraints and responsibilities.
jonnycoder 16y ago
They definitely should enjoy reading up on programming, technology, etc. Most of us who read HN, and are developers, fall into this category. I simply hate spending my weekends and evenings sitting indoors. I would probably get rejected by many interviewers for simply not spending my spare time doing lots of coding, even though solving problems and/or doing challenging activities is one of my favorite past times. I love learning new things and mastering (attempting to master) my favorite outdoor hobbies like golf, snowboarding, hunting, fishing, etc. If you are someone like me, then I suppose you should keep this in mind during an interview, and stress your enjoyment for more soft skills such as working with people and solving different types of problems outside the programming area.
euroclydon 16y ago
Keep in mind, that many job interviews are for a position that would be a step up for the candidate. And also keep in mind that there are a lot of lame programming jobs out there that just require a narrow technology skill set. Asking if a candidate programs in their spare time can be a really good indicator of whether they are up for the challenge of learning something new, or whether they're just looking for a bigger paycheck. Other professions have more formal, expensive, and rigid requirements for certification and continuing education. Programming does not. Consider spare time projects as one potential proxy for the former.

wikyd 16y ago

I bet that expectation applies to writers, designers, and other creative jobs. I'm not sure what you consider the line is for "professional career." The test probably does weed out good engineers, but I would rather have a test for employees that yields more false negatives than false positives. I know plenty of people with families that also code in their spare time as a hobby.

kenjackson 16y ago
I bet that expectation applies to writers, designers, and other creative jobs. I don't think so. I think programming is a weird mix because it is largely populated by somewhat awkward introverts. Writers I know do like to write, and write each day, but they're very scheduled. One of my friends says he writes six hours a day, if he wants to more or less. In part, I think other "creatives" value time among other humans. Whereas programmers tend not to value that as much. Plus programming had a weird dynamic where staying up late (or not sleeping) is something to have pride in. For other creatives -- inspiration and elegance seems to be something they take much more pride in, over brute hours on a task.
- _delirium 16y ago
  I agree it's not brute hours on a task, but most musician types I know do make it a significant focus of their lives. It's not just writing and recording during the day, but attending shows in their scene in the evenings, frequenting mailing lists, Usenet groups, and IRC channels, going to the right clubs, reading dozens of magazines, blogs, etc. in their spare time, listening to and reviewing others' albums, and so on. Being "a [genre] musician" is basically a full-time lifestyle.
  - kenjackson 16y ago
    Are these real pro musicians who derive 100% of their income from music? I ask because of those I know, most actually actively try to get away from the music scene when they can. OTOH, my neighbor who plays in the symphony (and is probably one of the best for her instrument in the US), plays music part time, because it can't pay the mortgage (at least not where she lives). She is a lot more into the lifestyle. It just seems like in other creative fields there's kind of a line between the pros vs the amateurs or hobbyists -- and how they spend their down time.
    - mnutt 16y ago
      It depends on the instrument, but most brass instruments require many hours a day of rote practice just to stay in shape if you're working professionally in a symphony. Also, many professional symphony musicians I know are in multiple side groups. (jazz bands, quartets, etc) I think there are actually some parallels with coding, though I don't believe orchestras take extra-curricular activities into account during auditions.
  - georgieporgie 16y ago
    For this analogy, I would like to point out that a musician attending a concert or chatting with fellow music nerds is equivalent to a programmer browsing /r/programming or having a beer with fellow programmer friends. It's a significantly lower-intensity activity than finishing a project.
Retric 16y ago
And I bet it's simply another form of age discrimination. People like to pretend that keeping up with the latest trends in computing takes a lot of time. But, mostly it's new people falling in love with old ideas. Consider, from a C background Ruby would seem extremely innovative, less so if you know C and python, and if you know C, python, and Lisp it's just not that novel. PS: Sometimes people are not exceeded about bulb because they have never heard of it. Other times they know more about it than you do and are simply not impressed by yet another remix of really old ideas.
- mkramlich 16y ago
  You nailed why I for one am not impressed/excited by Ruby. If the only language I had/knew before Ruby was say COBOL, Ruby would look like an orgasmic programming utopia. But if you have more experience under your belt, both with other languages, and with readability and long-term maintenance, then Ruby looks much less interesting. Not completely without interest/merits, just much less so.
- nostrademons 16y ago
  Someone who knows C, Python, and Lisp could probably talk fairly intelligently about Ruby even if they don't drink the Kool-Aid.

quanticle 16y ago

True, a good doctor doesn't diagnose neighbors for fun, but she does read medical journals and keeps up on the latest in her specialty. And would you trust an auto mechanic who didn't change the oil on her own car?

georgieporgie 16y ago
she does read medical journals and keeps up on the latest in her specialty. 1) I don't know much about doctors' scheduling, but I've known a few that seemed to schedule a batch of patients, then hours for paperwork, document review, and peer review/help. So I wonder how much of this happens in their "free time". 2) There's a difference between reading up on new technologies versus creating a project and seeing it through to completion. Similarly, there is a difference between reading medical journals (study) versus seeing patients (practice). would you trust an auto mechanic who didn't change the oil on her own car? Absolutely. That's a very simple job, and if my mechanic can have it done for $20 at Walmart while he shops, it's well worth his time. If he's a good mechanic, he bills at, what, $70+ per hour? By the way, the mechanics I've known tend to drive inexpensive, late-model cars, and get rid of them after a few years. Why? Because they don't want to fix cars in their spare time.
- bartonfink 16y ago
  I think the largest part of the fact that many mechanics drive inexpensive, late-model cars and get rid of them is the fact that inexpensive, late-model cars are more or less irreparable in a hobby setting. Things simply aren't mechanical anymore. Modern cars are so computerized and interconnected that you often can't just "fix" a broken part, you have to replace it. I'm sure a mechanic would be able to do the replacement if they had the part, but I imagine that takes a lot of the enjoyment out of being a mechanic. You could probably get around that by only buying cars that predate mass computerization (now 20+ years old), but then you're trading one problem for a potentially much larger set of problems. It's not that they might not want to fix cars - it's that it might not be worth it to indulge that activity as a hobby.
  - 16y ago

dkokelley 16y ago

I think a passion for your field or industry could show up in private life.However, some jobs are jobs because nobody wants to do them... even though they provide value. My dad works in the aerospace industry. Specifically outer space. His company builds rockets. And you know what? He LOVES outer space. He watches the ISS when it's visible over head, records the shuttle launches, and he browses the NASA app on his iPad, FOR FUN. You know what else? He's VERY good at his job. But then, some professions aren't necessarily fun. CPAs exist to remove a problem. It might not be the most glorious job, but it's a tough job that not everybody can do, so they are compensated well. I doubt they crunch numbers for fun. But you know what I'll bet they will do for fun, check up on the latest financial news.

georgieporgie 16y ago
Again, I believe there is an enormous difference between what you're citing as spare-time activities versus what a 'project' entails. Your dad seems to be engaging in activities which are relevant to his interest in aerospace, without actually involving what he does as 'work' each day. As I mentioned elsewhere, this is more on par with browsing /r/programming, skimming a book on a new programming language, or meeting with other tech-minded folks. In my opinion, this is very different from completing a software project.
- jamii 16y ago
  > I believe there is an enormous difference between what you're citing as spare-time activities versus what a 'project' entails. Sometimes I have clients with interesting projects but 90% of the time my day job is stirring enterprise soup. I fix bugs, write documentation and make responsible engineering decisions. My side projects have no tests, no documentation and no comments. I write fun stuff like chat bots that mess with 419 scammers or p2p chat protocols. I get to enjoy all the fun parts of programming without the real-world constraints and responsibilities.

jonnycoder 16y ago

They definitely should enjoy reading up on programming, technology, etc. Most of us who read HN, and are developers, fall into this category. I simply hate spending my weekends and evenings sitting indoors. I would probably get rejected by many interviewers for simply not spending my spare time doing lots of coding, even though solving problems and/or doing challenging activities is one of my favorite past times. I love learning new things and mastering (attempting to master) my favorite outdoor hobbies like golf, snowboarding, hunting, fishing, etc. If you are someone like me, then I suppose you should keep this in mind during an interview, and stress your enjoyment for more soft skills such as working with people and solving different types of problems outside the programming area.

euroclydon 16y ago

Keep in mind, that many job interviews are for a position that would be a step up for the candidate. And also keep in mind that there are a lot of lame programming jobs out there that just require a narrow technology skill set. Asking if a candidate programs in their spare time can be a really good indicator of whether they are up for the challenge of learning something new, or whether they're just looking for a bigger paycheck. Other professions have more formal, expensive, and rigid requirements for certification and continuing education. Programming does not. Consider spare time projects as one potential proxy for the former.