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This is my point exactly. What the judge in each case has to determine is how best to define the market. Whether "smartphone owners" or "devices that play video

This is my point exactly. What the judge in each case has to determine is how best to define the market. Whether "smartphone owners" or "devices that play videogames" or "App Store users" or "iOS devices" or "computers" or "phones" or any number of other ways. Do you determine it in the US only, or world-wide? (US courts have jurisdiction only here, but can determine a market based on any parameters) Do you determine the majority player based on units, or gross revenue, or profits? Is your primary concern when it comes to damages companies (like Epic) or end users? And so on. People are blithely making cases here like all of these things are simple, but they're the key to this and all other similar cases, and it's not as clear as people seem to assume. Different judges might decide different things on different days, and none are necessarily wrong... or right!

stale2002 6y ago
Although the nitty gritty details of the situation may be complicated, I do think that the high level situation is pretty simple. IE I am not sure how anyone could look at Apple's control over its market, and its policies, and disagree with the idea that Apple has significant control, and that its policies are anti-competitive. Regardless over the exact definition of a market that you use, it is quite clear that Apple has pretty significant market power over something and that its actions cause app prices to be significantly higher than they would be otherwise, if they allowed competing app stores.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  Yes, but please note how you described it first: "Apple's control over its market." Inasmuch as its Apple's market, its theirs to do with as they please. The question is, is it Apple's market? Or is the market something bigger or smaller, or belong to someone else (iOS users, for example, or smartphone users), in which case their needs should be prioritized. Personally, I think Apple's too big, and I don't trust them (though my M1 Mac mini should arrive Tuesday nonetheless), and I think the government should act. That said, antitrust has generally been focused on acquisitions and mergers, which don't seem to be the issue in Apple's case. Apple has genuinely made a product, mostly on their own, that has attracted enough users that it's become a problem. This seems like a radically different issue from other large tech companies, most of which have very large acquisitions that could be--and should be--undone. And Epic is being disingenuous and inconsistent, and I don't think they're in the right here, either.
  - stale2002 6y ago
    > Inasmuch as its Apple's market, its theirs to do with as they please. No it is not. > that has attracted enough users that it's become a problem. That doesn't matter. People could make the same claims about microsoft, that it "created" it's own OS market. But we all know how that went. Microsoft lost its anti trust case. > antitrust has generally been focused on acquisitions and mergers Or we could just look at the Microsoft case. The Microsoft case is directly applicable to Apples case. It doesn't matter if microsoft or apple "created" the market for OSes. They can still have significant market power. Imagine if Microsoft took the same exact actions that Apple did regarding app stores, on internet explorer. Imagine that Microsoft prevented all 3rd party web browsers, and then charged a 30% fee to websites accessed through IE. This would be clearly and obviously anti competitive. Why can't we use the same argument against Apple?
    - pwinnski 6y ago
      As I've said, I think Apple is too big. I hope we can find an argument to use against Apple. However, I think you are misremembering the MS case. As I recall from the time, a lot of that case hinged on the fact that MS was a software maker, not a hardware maker. So "the market" was defined as "all PCs," and a lot of what got MS in trouble was leveraging their dominant market position with Windows to force PC manufacturer to pay them license fees even for computers that didn't have Windows pre-installed. Since Apple makes their own hardware, the situation is not really analogous to the big MS case. As far as I can tell, Apple doesn't seem to be leveraging their market position (in any market) to force suppliers to pay Apple even when Apple isn't involved. That is, they aren't demanding any percentage of payment to Epic on non-iOS devices, right? So that's the center of the MS antitrust case with no obvious parallel. As far as imagining, I think it's really easy to imagine more direct parallels with Epic's case. Sony makes their own gaming hardware and exerts tight control over the PlayStation sales channel, including demanding a large cut of both initial sales and IAP. Microsoft makes their own gaming hardware and exerts tight control over the Xbox sales channel, including demanding a large cut of both initial sales and IAP. One question that has come up in court already is why Epic is fighting against Apple on this, but not Sony or Microsoft. I think it's a good question. Look, I've said repeatedly: I think Apple is too big. I believe something needs to be done, and maybe the iOS App Store is a good place to start. But I don't think Epic's case is any good at all, and I'm not sure there is a strong case against the iOS App Store other than: "we need to do something, and this annoys me." Which... I guess we just need to make that sound better.
- pwinnski 6y ago
  its actions cause app prices to be significantly higher than they would be otherwise, if they allowed competing app stores. I'm not so sure this is true. Historically it's far from true, but this is 2020, not 2010, so there are definitely a few examples now of companies charging more to balance out Apple's fees. That said, Apple essentially created what was decried at the time as a rush-to-zero that made mobile apps free or close to it, in turn driving down the price of many non-mobile games. Your statement seems to take only one side into consideration, while Apple will be highlighting both sides. If Fortnite in-game currency becomes less expensive, but the average game becomes more expensive, do we win or lose?

stale2002 6y ago

Although the nitty gritty details of the situation may be complicated, I do think that the high level situation is pretty simple. IE I am not sure how anyone could look at Apple's control over its market, and its policies, and disagree with the idea that Apple has significant control, and that its policies are anti-competitive. Regardless over the exact definition of a market that you use, it is quite clear that Apple has pretty significant market power over something and that its actions cause app prices to be significantly higher than they would be otherwise, if they allowed competing app stores.

pwinnski 6y ago
Yes, but please note how you described it first: "Apple's control over its market." Inasmuch as its Apple's market, its theirs to do with as they please. The question is, is it Apple's market? Or is the market something bigger or smaller, or belong to someone else (iOS users, for example, or smartphone users), in which case their needs should be prioritized. Personally, I think Apple's too big, and I don't trust them (though my M1 Mac mini should arrive Tuesday nonetheless), and I think the government should act. That said, antitrust has generally been focused on acquisitions and mergers, which don't seem to be the issue in Apple's case. Apple has genuinely made a product, mostly on their own, that has attracted enough users that it's become a problem. This seems like a radically different issue from other large tech companies, most of which have very large acquisitions that could be--and should be--undone. And Epic is being disingenuous and inconsistent, and I don't think they're in the right here, either.
- stale2002 6y ago
  > Inasmuch as its Apple's market, its theirs to do with as they please. No it is not. > that has attracted enough users that it's become a problem. That doesn't matter. People could make the same claims about microsoft, that it "created" it's own OS market. But we all know how that went. Microsoft lost its anti trust case. > antitrust has generally been focused on acquisitions and mergers Or we could just look at the Microsoft case. The Microsoft case is directly applicable to Apples case. It doesn't matter if microsoft or apple "created" the market for OSes. They can still have significant market power. Imagine if Microsoft took the same exact actions that Apple did regarding app stores, on internet explorer. Imagine that Microsoft prevented all 3rd party web browsers, and then charged a 30% fee to websites accessed through IE. This would be clearly and obviously anti competitive. Why can't we use the same argument against Apple?
  - pwinnski 6y ago
    As I've said, I think Apple is too big. I hope we can find an argument to use against Apple. However, I think you are misremembering the MS case. As I recall from the time, a lot of that case hinged on the fact that MS was a software maker, not a hardware maker. So "the market" was defined as "all PCs," and a lot of what got MS in trouble was leveraging their dominant market position with Windows to force PC manufacturer to pay them license fees even for computers that didn't have Windows pre-installed. Since Apple makes their own hardware, the situation is not really analogous to the big MS case. As far as I can tell, Apple doesn't seem to be leveraging their market position (in any market) to force suppliers to pay Apple even when Apple isn't involved. That is, they aren't demanding any percentage of payment to Epic on non-iOS devices, right? So that's the center of the MS antitrust case with no obvious parallel. As far as imagining, I think it's really easy to imagine more direct parallels with Epic's case. Sony makes their own gaming hardware and exerts tight control over the PlayStation sales channel, including demanding a large cut of both initial sales and IAP. Microsoft makes their own gaming hardware and exerts tight control over the Xbox sales channel, including demanding a large cut of both initial sales and IAP. One question that has come up in court already is why Epic is fighting against Apple on this, but not Sony or Microsoft. I think it's a good question. Look, I've said repeatedly: I think Apple is too big. I believe something needs to be done, and maybe the iOS App Store is a good place to start. But I don't think Epic's case is any good at all, and I'm not sure there is a strong case against the iOS App Store other than: "we need to do something, and this annoys me." Which... I guess we just need to make that sound better.
pwinnski 6y ago
its actions cause app prices to be significantly higher than they would be otherwise, if they allowed competing app stores. I'm not so sure this is true. Historically it's far from true, but this is 2020, not 2010, so there are definitely a few examples now of companies charging more to balance out Apple's fees. That said, Apple essentially created what was decried at the time as a rush-to-zero that made mobile apps free or close to it, in turn driving down the price of many non-mobile games. Your statement seems to take only one side into consideration, while Apple will be highlighting both sides. If Fortnite in-game currency becomes less expensive, but the average game becomes more expensive, do we win or lose?