6 ms·

I've felt this way for a while, that we're just spinning our wheels. UIs/lipstick gets prettier, but there is little out there we couldn't of had 10-20 years ag

I've felt this way for a while, that we're just spinning our wheels. UIs/lipstick gets prettier, but there is little out there we couldn't of had 10-20 years ago. Ergonomics of software development have made great strides in some ways, terrible regressions in others. There isn't much of substance to discuss. We probably don't enter the "new world" until quantum becomes ubiquitous or some other massive breakthrough.

pavel_lishin 6y ago
I don't know if I agree. I think in a lot of ways, UI ebbs and flows; a lot of modern UI feels pretty terrible and non-intuitive, and re-designed for the sake of being re-designed. And at the same time, writing software is tremendously easier than 20, or even 10 years ago. But maybe that's an ebb-and-flow issue as well. I tried adding React to an existing project last week, and was completely unable to. Everything broke. I'm debating which is the less-bad option - create a new repo, starting with React and gluing everything else around it, or moving just-the-react parts into a repo of their own. I'm tired of trying to figure out how to glue disparate, opinionated things together. I'm missing the Unix philosophy the author is talking about.
- npsimons 6y ago
  > I think in a lot of ways, UI ebbs and flows; a lot of modern UI feels pretty terrible and non-intuitive, and re-designed for the sake of being re-designed. I think we're still figuring out UIs. As someone who sucks at them myself, I often wonder where are the modern Bruce Tognazzini's. I'm still reminded of a point on UI design he made that the corners of the desktop in a WIMP are special because they are infinitely large targets - you just fling the mouse pointer there and hit them. This point was of particular interest to me as an early Linux desktop (FVWM) user with virtual desktops (3x3) that you could configure to flip between when the mouse got near the edge, so it broke the infinite corners convention. I'd like to find people who are thinking about UI's as deeply as the AskTog articles used to.
PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
To me this is just utterly ridiculous. In the field that I work in (audio software) there are dozens of things that we can do in software now that were unimagined even in 1990. Polyphonic note editing? Utterly transparent time stretching? Even just the ability to do huge amounts of serious DSP on generic CPUs has completely altered the entire landscape of music production (and the software that is used to do it). The same is true of so many other fields. What hasn't changed much is the sort of software that is concerned with entering, editing and generating reports on data. The business/consumer focused versions of this stuff have changed from being built with tools provided by Oracle in the 1980s to using various web stacks, but the basic model - data input, fetch some data and present in a GUI - remains unchanged. And perhaps that's because the task hasn't really changed much, and what we have is actually fairly good at doing it. But switch over to other areas where data-driven applications are important - many scientific disciplines for example - and even there you will find huge expansions in what is possible, particularly in terms of visualization (or auralization) as a way to help humans explore data. And FFS, Google freakin' maps! Yes, something like it existed 10 years ago, but have you actually used it while driving recently! It's not bringing about world peace or solving hunger, but good grief, that is an absolute marvel of the composition of so many different areas of CS and software engineering into one incredibly user-friendly tool that I don't even know what to say other than "use the 2nd lane from the right and then turn left at the light".
- TheKarateKid 6y ago
  I don't know why, but your extreme excitement for Google Maps really made me smile. It's important not to take really good pieces of software and services for granted, yet it's something we all do every day.
  - AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
    > It's important not to take really good pieces of software and services for granted, yet it's something we all do every day. This is so true. In fact, the user to whom you are replying is the creator of one of those really good pieces of software: Ardour [0]. If others who read this comment are users of Ardour, please consider doing a $5 monthly donation to Paul on PayPal. [0] https://ardour.org/ https://ardour.org/
dntrkv 6y ago
I know this is a common opinion held by many on HN, but I couldn't disagree more. UIs have not only gotten prettier, but in general, UX has improved significantly in the past 20 years. Take something like Google/Apple Maps and compare it to the tools available back in 2000. Sure, you could Mapquest some directions and print them out. But nowadays, you don't even have to think about planning your drive out. You hop in the car and navigate to your location. Need to stop somewhere for gas? Search along the route and find the cheapest gas with the shortest detour (not based on distance, but an accurate time estimation based on traffic/lights/etc) with your favorite restaurant nearby. Traffic up ahead? Get a suggested reroute in real-time. Need to take an exit? The app will tell you exactly which lane to be in to anticipate the next turn. Road debris/collision ahead? The app will let you know. Tioga pass closed? You don't even have to think about it since the app will route you via the correct pass from the start. Traveling via public transit in a new city, walking, biking? The app will give you directions tailored for your specific mode of travel. All of this, happening in real-time, on a device that fits in your pocket, while driving in your car. I could bring up the same examples for any other type of service. The fact that so many dismiss these legit, quality of life, improvements just shows how jaded many of you are. Sure, we aren't making breakthroughs at the fundamental levels of software, but that's only because we haven't even gotten close to reaching the limits of our current capabilities.
- egypturnash 6y ago
  Traveling via public transit in a new city, walking, biking? The app will give you directions tailored for your specific mode of travel. FWIW, there are at least two layers of map that map apps have no clue about that I find essential as a cyclist: how much shade am I going to get while going down a road in a city that routinely has temperatures that are near the top end of what the human body can deal with? And how bad is the road surface in a constantly-sinking swamp city full of potholes and half-assed repairs? There’s other layers - I don’t need to worry about whether or not I want to trade a longer route for clawing my way up a steep grade now that I don’t live in Seattle, for instance.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago
Existenceblinks 6y ago
Currently, It's terribly a mixed bag of broken platform communities and somewhat feel like java era again where huge ads money drives technology and tools. Same vibe of cults, force people to learn inferior framework and re-invent things that do not solve problems. Specially the web industry looks so bad right now. Google and Facebook seem to join force on _that_ javascript framework right now is .. ugghhh I should stop it here.
jimktrains2 6y ago
> UIs/lipstick gets prettier I wouldn't even say this is true. I hate most UIs out there. There seems to be little thought given to how they appear and are interacted with on a wide-variety of devices. In general, I just don't like a lot of æsthetic out there either.

pavel_lishin 6y ago

I don't know if I agree. I think in a lot of ways, UI ebbs and flows; a lot of modern UI feels pretty terrible and non-intuitive, and re-designed for the sake of being re-designed. And at the same time, writing software is tremendously easier than 20, or even 10 years ago. But maybe that's an ebb-and-flow issue as well. I tried adding React to an existing project last week, and was completely unable to. Everything broke. I'm debating which is the less-bad option - create a new repo, starting with React and gluing everything else around it, or moving just-the-react parts into a repo of their own. I'm tired of trying to figure out how to glue disparate, opinionated things together. I'm missing the Unix philosophy the author is talking about.

npsimons 6y ago
> I think in a lot of ways, UI ebbs and flows; a lot of modern UI feels pretty terrible and non-intuitive, and re-designed for the sake of being re-designed. I think we're still figuring out UIs. As someone who sucks at them myself, I often wonder where are the modern Bruce Tognazzini's. I'm still reminded of a point on UI design he made that the corners of the desktop in a WIMP are special because they are infinitely large targets - you just fling the mouse pointer there and hit them. This point was of particular interest to me as an early Linux desktop (FVWM) user with virtual desktops (3x3) that you could configure to flip between when the mouse got near the edge, so it broke the infinite corners convention. I'd like to find people who are thinking about UI's as deeply as the AskTog articles used to.

PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago

To me this is just utterly ridiculous. In the field that I work in (audio software) there are dozens of things that we can do in software now that were unimagined even in 1990. Polyphonic note editing? Utterly transparent time stretching? Even just the ability to do huge amounts of serious DSP on generic CPUs has completely altered the entire landscape of music production (and the software that is used to do it). The same is true of so many other fields. What hasn't changed much is the sort of software that is concerned with entering, editing and generating reports on data. The business/consumer focused versions of this stuff have changed from being built with tools provided by Oracle in the 1980s to using various web stacks, but the basic model - data input, fetch some data and present in a GUI - remains unchanged. And perhaps that's because the task hasn't really changed much, and what we have is actually fairly good at doing it. But switch over to other areas where data-driven applications are important - many scientific disciplines for example - and even there you will find huge expansions in what is possible, particularly in terms of visualization (or auralization) as a way to help humans explore data. And FFS, Google freakin' maps! Yes, something like it existed 10 years ago, but have you actually used it while driving recently! It's not bringing about world peace or solving hunger, but good grief, that is an absolute marvel of the composition of so many different areas of CS and software engineering into one incredibly user-friendly tool that I don't even know what to say other than "use the 2nd lane from the right and then turn left at the light".

TheKarateKid 6y ago
I don't know why, but your extreme excitement for Google Maps really made me smile. It's important not to take really good pieces of software and services for granted, yet it's something we all do every day.
- AndrewUnmuted 6y ago
  > It's important not to take really good pieces of software and services for granted, yet it's something we all do every day. This is so true. In fact, the user to whom you are replying is the creator of one of those really good pieces of software: Ardour [0]. If others who read this comment are users of Ardour, please consider doing a $5 monthly donation to Paul on PayPal. [0] https://ardour.org/ https://ardour.org/

dntrkv 6y ago

I know this is a common opinion held by many on HN, but I couldn't disagree more. UIs have not only gotten prettier, but in general, UX has improved significantly in the past 20 years. Take something like Google/Apple Maps and compare it to the tools available back in 2000. Sure, you could Mapquest some directions and print them out. But nowadays, you don't even have to think about planning your drive out. You hop in the car and navigate to your location. Need to stop somewhere for gas? Search along the route and find the cheapest gas with the shortest detour (not based on distance, but an accurate time estimation based on traffic/lights/etc) with your favorite restaurant nearby. Traffic up ahead? Get a suggested reroute in real-time. Need to take an exit? The app will tell you exactly which lane to be in to anticipate the next turn. Road debris/collision ahead? The app will let you know. Tioga pass closed? You don't even have to think about it since the app will route you via the correct pass from the start. Traveling via public transit in a new city, walking, biking? The app will give you directions tailored for your specific mode of travel. All of this, happening in real-time, on a device that fits in your pocket, while driving in your car. I could bring up the same examples for any other type of service. The fact that so many dismiss these legit, quality of life, improvements just shows how jaded many of you are. Sure, we aren't making breakthroughs at the fundamental levels of software, but that's only because we haven't even gotten close to reaching the limits of our current capabilities.

egypturnash 6y ago
Traveling via public transit in a new city, walking, biking? The app will give you directions tailored for your specific mode of travel. FWIW, there are at least two layers of map that map apps have no clue about that I find essential as a cyclist: how much shade am I going to get while going down a road in a city that routinely has temperatures that are near the top end of what the human body can deal with? And how bad is the road surface in a constantly-sinking swamp city full of potholes and half-assed repairs? There’s other layers - I don’t need to worry about whether or not I want to trade a longer route for clawing my way up a steep grade now that I don’t live in Seattle, for instance.
- PaulDavisThe1st 6y ago

Existenceblinks 6y ago

Currently, It's terribly a mixed bag of broken platform communities and somewhat feel like java era again where huge ads money drives technology and tools. Same vibe of cults, force people to learn inferior framework and re-invent things that do not solve problems. Specially the web industry looks so bad right now. Google and Facebook seem to join force on _that_ javascript framework right now is .. ugghhh I should stop it here.

jimktrains2 6y ago

> UIs/lipstick gets prettier I wouldn't even say this is true. I hate most UIs out there. There seems to be little thought given to how they appear and are interacted with on a wide-variety of devices. In general, I just don't like a lot of æsthetic out there either.