7 ms·

> And before "have you tried this *nix distro??" comments appear, they are still too hard to setup and nowhere near as user-friendly for most people on an every

by II2II 6y ago

> And before "have you tried this *nix distro??" comments appear, they are still too hard to setup and nowhere near as user-friendly for most people on an everyday basis. Uh, no. There are many reasons why people don't use Linux. The easy of setup and use lines are pure nonsense. Many Linux distributions have been easier to setup and use since at least the introduction of Ubuntu, and perhaps earlier. Just pop in the live installation media, try it out for a bit to ensure your hardware is compatible, then run an installation program that asks questions that make sense to people rather than marketers. Getting the applications you need installed has involved using a store-like interface for longer than software stores have existed on commercial desktop operating systems. So why is it perceived as harder? One reason: users typically have to install their operating system, while end users rarely see the process on commercial operating systems. Second reason: those who do install their own OS typically dedicate their system to commercial operating systems, yet use dual-boot for Linux (which will add technical steps). Third reason: those making the transition may try to install commercial applications via a VM or WINE due to compatibility, familiarity, or (periodically) the lack of an open source alternative. In other words, it is perceived as harder because people make it harder. As someone who has been using Linux for decades, I find the setup and user friendliness of something like Windows far inferior to to Linux. Yes, part of that is due to familiarity. On the other hand, some of it is inherent due to there being fewer restrictions with open source software.

kybernetikos 6y ago
Fifth reason - many many laptops have at least some piece of hardware or behaviour that requires fiddling to get to work on major linux systems. Sometimes it's power management, sometimes it's running with multiple monitors or 3d acceleration or the touchscreen, sometimes it's getting the touchpad to work properly or the fingerprint reader.... In my experience, there's usually something.
- II2II 6y ago
  While this may be true, we should still be impressed by the number of laptops Linux operates flawlessly on. Very few people would expect Windows to run properly on a MacBook and far fewer would expect macOS to run on a generic PC. Yet people expect Linux to work flawlessly on almost anything thrown at it. From my experience, it does a very good job of this (at least in recent years).
  - joshspankit 6y ago
    This is actually an excellent point that rarely sees the light of day.
  - hunterloftis 6y ago
    From a technical perspective it's a marvel, but as a user, "works flawlessly on the device you have," beats, "mostly works, but with daily annoyances, on your device and many others."
  - larntz 6y ago
    I started to reply earlier in the thread and then decided not to, but basically what I wanted to say was this. I have used Linux as a daily driver desktop for years, but I don't just buy random hardware and expect it to work. I do some research first and make sure what I buy works well enough with Linux to meet my needs.
sdevonoes 6y ago
> As someone who has been using Linux for decades, I find the setup and user friendliness of something like Windows far inferior to to Linux. Yes, part of that is due to familiarity. On the other hand, some of it is inherent due to there being fewer restrictions with open source software. Non-tech people don't want (or don't know how) to "setup". The most user-friendly setup won't ever beat "no setup" (e.g., macOS). Besides, marketing plays a huge role as well. Ask people to name a few "computer" brands: Apple, Microsoft, Google. No one would name "Linux". So, it's not just that people should be able to buy Linux computers with no setup (Dell is selling them, I think), it's also that these kind of computers should get enough marketing so people know about them.
- ppur 6y ago
  I think another thing that contributes to that last problem about "computer" brands is the lack of knowledge of the distinction between operating system manufacturer and hardware manufacturer - I just moved recently, and in the process of getting to know more people and accidentally becoming their tech support, I was surprised to see how many people didn't have that basic bit of knowledge. When pointing at a chromebook, people say "Google" without questioning why "lenovo" is also written on it.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  > Non-tech people don't want (or don't know how) to "setup". The most user-friendly setup won't ever beat "no setup" (e.g., macOS). I don't like this line of thinking because it is condescending. More importantly though, there are plenty of competent technical users like myself that would love to be using an open operating system but are fed up with dealing with the systemic problems Linux Desktop has that its developers and community keep papering over and pretending don't exist.
  - majewsky 6y ago
    It's not condescending, it's realistic. It's how I (as a tech person) approach most non-tech things in life. I rent because I don't want to deal with maintaining a house. I use public transit because I don't want to deal with maintaining a car. And so on. I may be an extreme example in some ways, but everyone only has so many fucks to give, and most people have legitimately exhausted their budget by the time they get to tech policy.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
> In other words, it is perceived as harder because people make it harder. If by "people" you mean "Linux Desktop developers". They have taken relatively simple things and abstracted them two or three times until they are so complex and fragile they need special programs and standards to automagically manage it all for the user. As soon as you step outside the box of what they expect (hey, why can't I install a program on a different disk than my OS?) it is revealed for the Goldbergesq garbage pile it is.
- fn1 6y ago
  > hey, why can't I install a program on a different disk than my OS? Apple user here (had Linux on the desktop for 5+ years and windows for a longer time): Why would I care whether my program is on one disk or another? Why would I even "install" something, instead of dragging/dropping a single "file" (yes I know it's a directory) like I usually do. Do Linux applications all self-update using Sparkle like Mac-applications do? I also love Apple-music where I can listen to everything on all my devices, can I have that in Linux? Does linux have the same beautiful font-rendering that I get in OSX, or do I have ugly non-antialiased bitmap-fonts now and there? I also haven't used installation-media for operating-system installation in many many years, everything just works via the internet. I input my apple-id on a new mac and everything sync perfectly without any issue. Do I get that in linux? One login and my mail, notes, calendar, photos, music, files, backups, keychain sync across all devices? And also simpler UI-questions: Can I rightclick on a file/folder and it says "Compress to zip?". I can have that in windows, can I have it in Linux? Can I easily create a encrypted bundle and mount it in the UI? Can I drag the little icon on top of any open window into any filedialog to rapidly access that file? Can I easily configure keyboard shortcuts system-wide? Can I have a photos-app that is as good as Apple Photos? I think OSX is great. It feels more and more locked down, that is true, but I haven't had any real issue with this yet. I still can develop whatever I want and run it if I feel like it.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    > Why would I care whether my program is on one disk or another? A lot of reasons. Maybe your OS disk is on a ludicrously fast SSD but is space-limited and you don't want to waste that space on applications that don't need it. > Why would I even "install" something, instead of dragging/dropping a single "file" (yes I know it's a directory) like I usually do. Agree wholeheartedly. It makes perfect intuitive sense: the application is exactly where I think it is, and if I move it somewhere else then it is exactly there, and if I delete it then it is exactly gone.
jtbayly 6y ago
> Just pop in the live installation media So... way harder than Mac OS. In fact, that’s literally impossible on my computer.
- jagged-chisel 6y ago
  USB thumb drive is still "live installation media"
  - jtbayly 6y ago
    Now don’t I feel sheepish! But seriously, I guess it is possible to use a USB thumb drive on my Mac with only Thunderbolt ports, but I never have and it’s never occurred to me. I suppose I still have one somewhere and maybe a dongle that would let me do it.
  - jonfw 6y ago
    which is still a pain in the butt because you have to own, find, backup, and completely wipe a thumb drive to do it. Or you have go to the store because who uses thumb drives anymore?
- christophilus 6y ago
  You don't have a USB port of some kind?
  - maddening 6y ago
    Macbooks from 2019 have 4 thunderbolts 3 ports and 1 mini jack. And that's all. If you want to power the device, you do it through a thunderbold. If you want to connect a USB that is not USB C, you have to use adapter and/or USB HUB. So you would have to connect to your USB through adapter/hub, and if for some reason whatever installer wouldn't support this you would be screwed (but I guess most of the time it would be doable, just inconvenient).
jleach82 6y ago
I got fed up with Win10 last year and finally switched to a Mint distro. I run a software development company that works on the MS stack. I stuck with Mint for six months and finally switched back to Windows. I didn't find it particularly difficult to set up. Some things are much easier (TAP drivers for connecting to multiple VPNs and running side by side remote sessions to difficult workstations across different networks, for instance). Even setting up a Windows virtual box was no biggie. There's two reasons I switched back: 1) lack of consistency across applications is hampering to productivity, and 2) lack of stability in the application/tooling is hampering to productivity. I gave myself 6 months to let myself get used to it, and there's a great many things I loved about it, but in the end it was less of a hurdle to deal with Win10's oddities than it was do deal with various inconsistencies and "usage maintenance" of getting having a suitable, productive workspace across Linux (and yes, I realize a large part of this was due to the fact I essentially run an MS-development shop and therefore have to work with MS tooling, but on the other hand, everyone working in any end-user business scenario has to work with Office documents, etc.)
uglycoyote 6y ago
There's installation and then there's setup. I would agree with you that installation on linux is easy these days, but setup... no. I have tried moving over to linux several times throughout the years, but setup was always a huge issue. Installation was easy, but things like trying to get my aging peripherals to work properly, and trying to get font rendering not to look like absolute ass were always a huge hindrance.

by II2II 6y ago

kybernetikos 6y ago

Fifth reason - many many laptops have at least some piece of hardware or behaviour that requires fiddling to get to work on major linux systems. Sometimes it's power management, sometimes it's running with multiple monitors or 3d acceleration or the touchscreen, sometimes it's getting the touchpad to work properly or the fingerprint reader.... In my experience, there's usually something.

II2II 6y ago
While this may be true, we should still be impressed by the number of laptops Linux operates flawlessly on. Very few people would expect Windows to run properly on a MacBook and far fewer would expect macOS to run on a generic PC. Yet people expect Linux to work flawlessly on almost anything thrown at it. From my experience, it does a very good job of this (at least in recent years).
- joshspankit 6y ago
  This is actually an excellent point that rarely sees the light of day.
- hunterloftis 6y ago
  From a technical perspective it's a marvel, but as a user, "works flawlessly on the device you have," beats, "mostly works, but with daily annoyances, on your device and many others."
- larntz 6y ago
  I started to reply earlier in the thread and then decided not to, but basically what I wanted to say was this. I have used Linux as a daily driver desktop for years, but I don't just buy random hardware and expect it to work. I do some research first and make sure what I buy works well enough with Linux to meet my needs.

sdevonoes 6y ago

> As someone who has been using Linux for decades, I find the setup and user friendliness of something like Windows far inferior to to Linux. Yes, part of that is due to familiarity. On the other hand, some of it is inherent due to there being fewer restrictions with open source software. Non-tech people don't want (or don't know how) to "setup". The most user-friendly setup won't ever beat "no setup" (e.g., macOS). Besides, marketing plays a huge role as well. Ask people to name a few "computer" brands: Apple, Microsoft, Google. No one would name "Linux". So, it's not just that people should be able to buy Linux computers with no setup (Dell is selling them, I think), it's also that these kind of computers should get enough marketing so people know about them.

ppur 6y ago
I think another thing that contributes to that last problem about "computer" brands is the lack of knowledge of the distinction between operating system manufacturer and hardware manufacturer - I just moved recently, and in the process of getting to know more people and accidentally becoming their tech support, I was surprised to see how many people didn't have that basic bit of knowledge. When pointing at a chromebook, people say "Google" without questioning why "lenovo" is also written on it.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
> Non-tech people don't want (or don't know how) to "setup". The most user-friendly setup won't ever beat "no setup" (e.g., macOS). I don't like this line of thinking because it is condescending. More importantly though, there are plenty of competent technical users like myself that would love to be using an open operating system but are fed up with dealing with the systemic problems Linux Desktop has that its developers and community keep papering over and pretending don't exist.
- majewsky 6y ago
  It's not condescending, it's realistic. It's how I (as a tech person) approach most non-tech things in life. I rent because I don't want to deal with maintaining a house. I use public transit because I don't want to deal with maintaining a car. And so on. I may be an extreme example in some ways, but everyone only has so many fucks to give, and most people have legitimately exhausted their budget by the time they get to tech policy.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago

> In other words, it is perceived as harder because people make it harder. If by "people" you mean "Linux Desktop developers". They have taken relatively simple things and abstracted them two or three times until they are so complex and fragile they need special programs and standards to automagically manage it all for the user. As soon as you step outside the box of what they expect (hey, why can't I install a program on a different disk than my OS?) it is revealed for the Goldbergesq garbage pile it is.

fn1 6y ago
> hey, why can't I install a program on a different disk than my OS? Apple user here (had Linux on the desktop for 5+ years and windows for a longer time): Why would I care whether my program is on one disk or another? Why would I even "install" something, instead of dragging/dropping a single "file" (yes I know it's a directory) like I usually do. Do Linux applications all self-update using Sparkle like Mac-applications do? I also love Apple-music where I can listen to everything on all my devices, can I have that in Linux? Does linux have the same beautiful font-rendering that I get in OSX, or do I have ugly non-antialiased bitmap-fonts now and there? I also haven't used installation-media for operating-system installation in many many years, everything just works via the internet. I input my apple-id on a new mac and everything sync perfectly without any issue. Do I get that in linux? One login and my mail, notes, calendar, photos, music, files, backups, keychain sync across all devices? And also simpler UI-questions: Can I rightclick on a file/folder and it says "Compress to zip?". I can have that in windows, can I have it in Linux? Can I easily create a encrypted bundle and mount it in the UI? Can I drag the little icon on top of any open window into any filedialog to rapidly access that file? Can I easily configure keyboard shortcuts system-wide? Can I have a photos-app that is as good as Apple Photos? I think OSX is great. It feels more and more locked down, that is true, but I haven't had any real issue with this yet. I still can develop whatever I want and run it if I feel like it.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  > Why would I care whether my program is on one disk or another? A lot of reasons. Maybe your OS disk is on a ludicrously fast SSD but is space-limited and you don't want to waste that space on applications that don't need it. > Why would I even "install" something, instead of dragging/dropping a single "file" (yes I know it's a directory) like I usually do. Agree wholeheartedly. It makes perfect intuitive sense: the application is exactly where I think it is, and if I move it somewhere else then it is exactly there, and if I delete it then it is exactly gone.

jtbayly 6y ago

> Just pop in the live installation media So... way harder than Mac OS. In fact, that’s literally impossible on my computer.

jagged-chisel 6y ago
USB thumb drive is still "live installation media"
- jtbayly 6y ago
  Now don’t I feel sheepish! But seriously, I guess it is possible to use a USB thumb drive on my Mac with only Thunderbolt ports, but I never have and it’s never occurred to me. I suppose I still have one somewhere and maybe a dongle that would let me do it.
- jonfw 6y ago
  which is still a pain in the butt because you have to own, find, backup, and completely wipe a thumb drive to do it. Or you have go to the store because who uses thumb drives anymore?
christophilus 6y ago
You don't have a USB port of some kind?
- maddening 6y ago
  Macbooks from 2019 have 4 thunderbolts 3 ports and 1 mini jack. And that's all. If you want to power the device, you do it through a thunderbold. If you want to connect a USB that is not USB C, you have to use adapter and/or USB HUB. So you would have to connect to your USB through adapter/hub, and if for some reason whatever installer wouldn't support this you would be screwed (but I guess most of the time it would be doable, just inconvenient).

jleach82 6y ago

I got fed up with Win10 last year and finally switched to a Mint distro. I run a software development company that works on the MS stack. I stuck with Mint for six months and finally switched back to Windows. I didn't find it particularly difficult to set up. Some things are much easier (TAP drivers for connecting to multiple VPNs and running side by side remote sessions to difficult workstations across different networks, for instance). Even setting up a Windows virtual box was no biggie. There's two reasons I switched back: 1) lack of consistency across applications is hampering to productivity, and 2) lack of stability in the application/tooling is hampering to productivity. I gave myself 6 months to let myself get used to it, and there's a great many things I loved about it, but in the end it was less of a hurdle to deal with Win10's oddities than it was do deal with various inconsistencies and "usage maintenance" of getting having a suitable, productive workspace across Linux (and yes, I realize a large part of this was due to the fact I essentially run an MS-development shop and therefore have to work with MS tooling, but on the other hand, everyone working in any end-user business scenario has to work with Office documents, etc.)

uglycoyote 6y ago

There's installation and then there's setup. I would agree with you that installation on linux is easy these days, but setup... no. I have tried moving over to linux several times throughout the years, but setup was always a huge issue. Installation was easy, but things like trying to get my aging peripherals to work properly, and trying to get font rendering not to look like absolute ass were always a huge hindrance.