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> This is the same sort of logic that some people have that people shouldn't be allowed to make choices in life because they "might get it wrong". No, it's not

by jb1991 6y ago

> This is the same sort of logic that some people have that people shouldn't be allowed to make choices in life because they "might get it wrong". No, it's not at all the same sort of logic. We are talking about technology here, not overall life experience. Everyone starts out life on the same footing, with zero experience, and has the innate potential to learn how to live it. But computers are a very specific, highly specialized machinery that the vast parts of the population will never be able to directly understand or fix. I can drive a car but I don't know the first thing about fixing it. You could claim that no one should own technology if they don't understand it intimately, but that is a different kind of logic and argument. It's silly to conflate the two.

forest_dweller 6y ago
All you are advocating for is a new priestly class. > Everyone starts out life on the same footing, with zero experience, and has the innate potential to learn how to live it. But computers are a very specific, highly specialized machinery that the vast parts of the population will never be able to directly understand or fix. I started off with zero experience and learned more over time to throw your own words back at you. I learned how to program on a computer when I was 10 years old (which was 28 years ago now) after my Grandfather (who was born in the 1920s) learned how to operate his own computer at home. We had manuals and trial and error and the library. It was much more difficult to learn back then because there was no internet, no youtube and almost nobody had a computer. Computers back then were a lot more difficult to use as well. So don't give me this nonsense about it being so opaque it is impossible for an ordinary person. Also most people will know a friend or relative that is handy with a PC or you could go to a local specialist for help. A large multi-billion company "looking out for the plebs" isn't required. Apple has been quite good it seems as selling this narrative. > I can drive a car but I don't know the first thing about fixing it. Plenty of people used to be able to work on their own cars in the past (and still do today). Most of them would be considered "laymen". Plenty of people fix their own phones and computers, or go to a repair shop where people have taught themselves to repair electronics and turned it into a business. Just because you choose to be ignorant (which is absolutely fine) doesn't mean other people aren't able or willing to.
- jb1991 6y ago
  > I started off with zero experience and learned more over time to throw your own words back at you. Do you think that all people are born with the innate ability to master computers, programming, and other technical tasks? Just as not all people are born with innate ability to write a good novel, paint a masterpiece, write a symphony, or lead a nation, I'd say no. But all people are born with the ability to live their own life and learn how best to do it in the direction that seems natural for themselves. You are confusing the spirit of this discourse.
  - forest_dweller 6y ago
    > Do you think that all people are born with the innate ability to master computers, programming, and other technical tasks? No. That is besides the point. There is a big difference in knowing how to repair a computer, how to program a computer and how to do technical tasks with a computer. Repairing a computer normally involves identifying the part that is faulty and replacing it. On a desktop PC that is relatively because the components go together like Lego pieces tbh. My father managed to replace the memory in his ageing desktop computer by just looking for what the parts were in the machine and just replacing them. He barely understands how to use a keyboard (he highlights each letter with the mouse and presses delete) I am good at programming computers but I don't understand how Excel works past very basics. My friend who can't "program" with something like a text editor or IDE, she will quite happily do all sorts of complicated tasks with sheets and cells in it all day. > Just as not all people are born with innate ability to write a good novel, paint a masterpiece, write a symphony, or lead a nation, I'd say no. I never claimed the opposite. However there are plenty of people while they can't write a symphony can start up their own metal tribute band and make quite a lot of money. You are painting it as a binary of people that can't do something and people that have mastered something. There are plenty room inbetween. This place is called hackernews and I have explain this point sooo verbosely. This must be satire. > But all people are born with the ability to live their own life and learn how best to do it in the direction that seems natural for themselves. Some aren't actually. I have a friend that looks after seriously mentally ill people. They must be cared for almost 24/7. There is one lad he told me about that will masturbate in public because he has no concept of it being socially unacceptable due to having somethign similar to asbergers IIRC. > You are confusing the spirit of this discourse. I don't think so.
modo_mario 6y ago
> You could claim that no one should own technology if they don't understand it intimately, but that is a different kind of logic and argument. It's silly to conflate the two. Can you point out where he made such a claim? Because I don't see it. >But computers are a very specific, highly specialized machinery that the vast parts of the population will never be able to directly understand or fix. Computers are all that only in the vaguest of sense. They're actually not specialised at all. They're actually extremely general purpose. But whether that's the case at all there's a lot items, equipment and tools that are very specialised that most people don't understand but if they were made in act in any way similar to this because someone somehow managed to use them in a retarded way it would surely raise some eyebrows. Company incentives are trash and I trust them A LOT lot less to not make stuff designed to fail, to lock in customers, to snoop data, etc, etc than I trust myself to not do stupid shit when i want an exception to some safety feature or the like. >I can drive a car but I don't know the first thing about fixing it. And would you buy a car with the hood welded shut? With the tires needing some kind of manufacturers signature to not be locked? One that locks up if you try to use some 3rd party seatcovers? No. And yeah there's some type of modifications to them and actions that we generally try to prevent...but that's because we're talking about a highspeed deathmobile to surrounding drivers/pedestrians if you start putting spikes on it or fuck up your breaks. That however is not the case for a pc, phone, printer or what have you.
- jb1991 6y ago
  > Can you point out where he made such a claim? Because I don't see it. Please see again the phrasing I used. Specifically, the clause using the word “could“.
  - modo_mario 6y ago
    Apologies. I completely misread there.

by jb1991 6y ago

forest_dweller 6y ago

All you are advocating for is a new priestly class. > Everyone starts out life on the same footing, with zero experience, and has the innate potential to learn how to live it. But computers are a very specific, highly specialized machinery that the vast parts of the population will never be able to directly understand or fix. I started off with zero experience and learned more over time to throw your own words back at you. I learned how to program on a computer when I was 10 years old (which was 28 years ago now) after my Grandfather (who was born in the 1920s) learned how to operate his own computer at home. We had manuals and trial and error and the library. It was much more difficult to learn back then because there was no internet, no youtube and almost nobody had a computer. Computers back then were a lot more difficult to use as well. So don't give me this nonsense about it being so opaque it is impossible for an ordinary person. Also most people will know a friend or relative that is handy with a PC or you could go to a local specialist for help. A large multi-billion company "looking out for the plebs" isn't required. Apple has been quite good it seems as selling this narrative. > I can drive a car but I don't know the first thing about fixing it. Plenty of people used to be able to work on their own cars in the past (and still do today). Most of them would be considered "laymen". Plenty of people fix their own phones and computers, or go to a repair shop where people have taught themselves to repair electronics and turned it into a business. Just because you choose to be ignorant (which is absolutely fine) doesn't mean other people aren't able or willing to.

jb1991 6y ago
> I started off with zero experience and learned more over time to throw your own words back at you. Do you think that all people are born with the innate ability to master computers, programming, and other technical tasks? Just as not all people are born with innate ability to write a good novel, paint a masterpiece, write a symphony, or lead a nation, I'd say no. But all people are born with the ability to live their own life and learn how best to do it in the direction that seems natural for themselves. You are confusing the spirit of this discourse.
- forest_dweller 6y ago
  > Do you think that all people are born with the innate ability to master computers, programming, and other technical tasks? No. That is besides the point. There is a big difference in knowing how to repair a computer, how to program a computer and how to do technical tasks with a computer. Repairing a computer normally involves identifying the part that is faulty and replacing it. On a desktop PC that is relatively because the components go together like Lego pieces tbh. My father managed to replace the memory in his ageing desktop computer by just looking for what the parts were in the machine and just replacing them. He barely understands how to use a keyboard (he highlights each letter with the mouse and presses delete) I am good at programming computers but I don't understand how Excel works past very basics. My friend who can't "program" with something like a text editor or IDE, she will quite happily do all sorts of complicated tasks with sheets and cells in it all day. > Just as not all people are born with innate ability to write a good novel, paint a masterpiece, write a symphony, or lead a nation, I'd say no. I never claimed the opposite. However there are plenty of people while they can't write a symphony can start up their own metal tribute band and make quite a lot of money. You are painting it as a binary of people that can't do something and people that have mastered something. There are plenty room inbetween. This place is called hackernews and I have explain this point sooo verbosely. This must be satire. > But all people are born with the ability to live their own life and learn how best to do it in the direction that seems natural for themselves. Some aren't actually. I have a friend that looks after seriously mentally ill people. They must be cared for almost 24/7. There is one lad he told me about that will masturbate in public because he has no concept of it being socially unacceptable due to having somethign similar to asbergers IIRC. > You are confusing the spirit of this discourse. I don't think so.

modo_mario 6y ago

> You could claim that no one should own technology if they don't understand it intimately, but that is a different kind of logic and argument. It's silly to conflate the two. Can you point out where he made such a claim? Because I don't see it. >But computers are a very specific, highly specialized machinery that the vast parts of the population will never be able to directly understand or fix. Computers are all that only in the vaguest of sense. They're actually not specialised at all. They're actually extremely general purpose. But whether that's the case at all there's a lot items, equipment and tools that are very specialised that most people don't understand but if they were made in act in any way similar to this because someone somehow managed to use them in a retarded way it would surely raise some eyebrows. Company incentives are trash and I trust them A LOT lot less to not make stuff designed to fail, to lock in customers, to snoop data, etc, etc than I trust myself to not do stupid shit when i want an exception to some safety feature or the like. >I can drive a car but I don't know the first thing about fixing it. And would you buy a car with the hood welded shut? With the tires needing some kind of manufacturers signature to not be locked? One that locks up if you try to use some 3rd party seatcovers? No. And yeah there's some type of modifications to them and actions that we generally try to prevent...but that's because we're talking about a highspeed deathmobile to surrounding drivers/pedestrians if you start putting spikes on it or fuck up your breaks. That however is not the case for a pc, phone, printer or what have you.

jb1991 6y ago
> Can you point out where he made such a claim? Because I don't see it. Please see again the phrasing I used. Specifically, the clause using the word “could“.
- modo_mario 6y ago
  Apologies. I completely misread there.