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Ever watch an ad that's so good, you can feel yourself being manipulated? I equate freedom in the Huxleyworld to be like that. So long as you're aware that yo

by xapata 6y ago

Ever watch an ad that's so good, you can feel yourself being manipulated? I equate freedom in the Huxleyworld to be like that. So long as you're aware that your choices are, through overwhelming convenience, limited to whatever the machine allows, you're free. The implication is that you can, with enough effort, choose something outside that range. Perhaps as a hobby, the way some people today brew their own beer or make their own furniture.

godelski 6y ago
But the limiting or manipulating of your set of choices does limit your freedom. At least according to Leibniz. > Ever watch an ad that manipulated you? I think the question comes down to this, as opposed to what you wrote. The problem is not when you know you are being manipulated, but when you don't. It would be naive to think you're above this, considering that ads do work, considering that they've been a worthwhile tool for companies for hundreds of years and have been the basis for trillion dollar companies that exist today. It certainty warrants questioning if you have gained or loss freedom with this system in place. This clearly limits your choice or maybe more accurately heavily influences the weights on the decision set. I believe Leibniz would consider this a reduction of freedom (as do I).
- xapata 6y ago
  > The problem is ... when you don't [know you are being manipulated] Exactly. Thus my assertion that I'm free to the extent I am aware of how my environment and society affects me. Though that's not a complete definition, as we've discussed the issue of not just soft power, but also hard constraints. One wrinkle is that some advertisements aren't only manipulation, but information as well. They're freedom-reducing to the extent they undetectably manipulate, but freedom-increasing to the extent the provide information that allows more choices! Further, the protagonist in our story has new choices that aren't options in our society today. It's not clear that the protagonist has a net-negative freedom experience, compared with today.

by xapata 6y ago

godelski 6y ago

But the limiting or manipulating of your set of choices does limit your freedom. At least according to Leibniz. > Ever watch an ad that manipulated you? I think the question comes down to this, as opposed to what you wrote. The problem is not when you know you are being manipulated, but when you don't. It would be naive to think you're above this, considering that ads do work, considering that they've been a worthwhile tool for companies for hundreds of years and have been the basis for trillion dollar companies that exist today. It certainty warrants questioning if you have gained or loss freedom with this system in place. This clearly limits your choice or maybe more accurately heavily influences the weights on the decision set. I believe Leibniz would consider this a reduction of freedom (as do I).

xapata 6y ago
> The problem is ... when you don't [know you are being manipulated] Exactly. Thus my assertion that I'm free to the extent I am aware of how my environment and society affects me. Though that's not a complete definition, as we've discussed the issue of not just soft power, but also hard constraints. One wrinkle is that some advertisements aren't only manipulation, but information as well. They're freedom-reducing to the extent they undetectably manipulate, but freedom-increasing to the extent the provide information that allows more choices! Further, the protagonist in our story has new choices that aren't options in our society today. It's not clear that the protagonist has a net-negative freedom experience, compared with today.