6 ms·

To me it’s wild that anyone would want voting to be anything but universal. Shouldn’t they send ballots to every person legally allowed to vote?

dosman33 6y ago
Riiiiight. Just look at how districts are gerrymandered to realize this is not what politicians of either side want.
pstrateman 6y ago
Every person legally allowed to vote should be able to vote. No votes should be cast by people not allowed to vote. Mail-in ballots are not secret ballots and that's dangerous. There's a reason a workplace cannot be unionized in the US without a true secret ballot.
- jcranmer 6y ago
  Mail-in ballots are secret ballots. The way they work is that they have two envelopes: you put your ballot in the inner envelope, which has no indication of who is casting the ballot. All of that information is on the outer envelope. When processing the ballot, the information is checked on the outer envelope; once verified, the inner envelope is then handed to another station to be opened and fed into the counting machine while the outer envelope is discarded.
  - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
    > Mail-in ballots are secret ballots I’ve knocked on doors in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. Many registered Democrats (usually the wife) denied being Democrats when their partners were around. I thought this was an error in our data until I revisited the neighbourhood. Husband wasn’t home. Wife scolded us. He is an ardent Republican and wouldn’t appreciate how she votes. Mail-in ballots let voters verify their vote to third parties. That opens them up to external influence, positive (pay for votes) or negative (fired for voting wrong). We had no choice this year. But there is a real tradeoff in privacy for vulnerable people. We shouldn't lose sight of that trade-off while pushing for turnout.
    - Larrikin 6y ago
      Isn't the actual problem the abusive relationship and that pressure to vote a certain way a symptom? The solution isn't to ban mail in ballots for those that want to vote that way, but to offer assistance to empower people to get out of that situation. It's already illegal to take a picture of your ballot to address these kinds of abuses.
      - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
        > Isn't the actual problem the abusive relationship and that pressure to vote a certain way a symptom? The solution isn't to ban no mail in ballots for those that want to vote that way, but to offer assistance to empower people to get out of that situation. If a voting system requires zero abusive power dynamics to work, it’s a bad system. Also, banning mail-in ballots isn’t the only solution. Early voting is an alternative to mailed ballots. Letting someone re-vote a mailed-in ballot at a poll site is a fix to the cited problem, though it introduces complexity.
        Larrikin 6y ago
        All of the above seems like the best solution
        JumpCrisscross 6y ago
        I agree. Was just responding to OP saying “mail-in ballots are secret ballots.” They are not. To return to our status quo of secret ballots, a mail-in ballot system needs additional thought.
    - zepto 6y ago
      How exactly do mail in ballots let voters verify their vote to third parties?
      - pstrateman 6y ago
        They fill-in the ballot in front of them and seal the envelope. Or worse the voter gives the other person the empty ballot with a signed envelope.
  - pstrateman 6y ago
    Mail-in ballots are absolutely not a secret ballot. A secret ballot is one in which each voters vote is anonymous to EVERYBODY. Spouse, parent, landlord, employer, union boss, social worker. Case in point https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/limestone-county-social-worker-charged-134-felony-counts-involving-election-fraud https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/limestone...
  - bluejekyll 6y ago
    This doesn’t work the same way in every state. In my county of CA you only send back a single envelope with the ballots folded over. Instead there is a serial number you can tear off to validate that the ballot was counted. So it’s not doubly secret in the way you describe: https://elections.cdn.sos.ca.gov/vote-by-mail/pdf/guidance.pdf https://elections.cdn.sos.ca.gov/vote-by-mail/pdf/guidance.p...
  - chrisco255 6y ago
    They're not secret at all. They can be canvassed and frequently are, by pushers who pressure people to vote a particular way.
throwaway_l33t 6y ago
Isn’t it reasonable to want the people who make a decision to know what they’re making a decision about? I want all the informed voters to vote but, by and large, uninformed voters make the outcome arbitrary.
- jlgaddis 6y ago
  I forget who said it and I won't even get the quote exactly right, but I'm reminded of something I once heard: > The greatest thing about a democracy is that every idiot is allowed to vote. > The worst thing about a democracy is that every idiot is allowed to vote.
  - throwaway_l33t 6y ago
    Yeah, the problem is coming up with a test that actually identifies who’s “informed” without biasing the electorate unfairly.
  - jhanschoo 6y ago
    If democracies don't allow idiots to vote, that creates a disenfranchised class that does not accept the government as legitimate. An important role of democracy is to stave off class conflict, arguably just as important or moreso than having a government that serves the people efficiently. A proper long-term solution is to have governments invest in critical thinking skills and education, but of course, it's a catch-22 situation.
rayiner 6y ago
Mail in voting is probably secure, but there are enough concerns where many countries with healthy democracies limit who can vote by mail: https://www.newsweek.com/voting-fraud-real-concern-just-look-around-world-opinion-1522535 https://www.newsweek.com/voting-fraud-real-concern-just-look... > Here is what we found. Besides the United States, there are 36 member states in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). Forty-seven percent ban mail-in voting unless the citizen is living abroad, and 30 percent require a photo ID to obtain a mail-in ballot. Fourteen percent of the countries ban mail-in voting even for those living abroad.

dosman33 6y ago

Riiiiight. Just look at how districts are gerrymandered to realize this is not what politicians of either side want.

pstrateman 6y ago

Every person legally allowed to vote should be able to vote. No votes should be cast by people not allowed to vote. Mail-in ballots are not secret ballots and that's dangerous. There's a reason a workplace cannot be unionized in the US without a true secret ballot.

jcranmer 6y ago
Mail-in ballots are secret ballots. The way they work is that they have two envelopes: you put your ballot in the inner envelope, which has no indication of who is casting the ballot. All of that information is on the outer envelope. When processing the ballot, the information is checked on the outer envelope; once verified, the inner envelope is then handed to another station to be opened and fed into the counting machine while the outer envelope is discarded.
- JumpCrisscross 6y ago
  > Mail-in ballots are secret ballots I’ve knocked on doors in New Jersey and Pennsylvania. Many registered Democrats (usually the wife) denied being Democrats when their partners were around. I thought this was an error in our data until I revisited the neighbourhood. Husband wasn’t home. Wife scolded us. He is an ardent Republican and wouldn’t appreciate how she votes. Mail-in ballots let voters verify their vote to third parties. That opens them up to external influence, positive (pay for votes) or negative (fired for voting wrong). We had no choice this year. But there is a real tradeoff in privacy for vulnerable people. We shouldn't lose sight of that trade-off while pushing for turnout.
  - Larrikin 6y ago
    Isn't the actual problem the abusive relationship and that pressure to vote a certain way a symptom? The solution isn't to ban mail in ballots for those that want to vote that way, but to offer assistance to empower people to get out of that situation. It's already illegal to take a picture of your ballot to address these kinds of abuses.
    - JumpCrisscross 6y ago
      > Isn't the actual problem the abusive relationship and that pressure to vote a certain way a symptom? The solution isn't to ban no mail in ballots for those that want to vote that way, but to offer assistance to empower people to get out of that situation. If a voting system requires zero abusive power dynamics to work, it’s a bad system. Also, banning mail-in ballots isn’t the only solution. Early voting is an alternative to mailed ballots. Letting someone re-vote a mailed-in ballot at a poll site is a fix to the cited problem, though it introduces complexity.
      - Larrikin 6y ago
        All of the above seems like the best solution
        JumpCrisscross 6y ago
        I agree. Was just responding to OP saying “mail-in ballots are secret ballots.” They are not. To return to our status quo of secret ballots, a mail-in ballot system needs additional thought.
  - zepto 6y ago
    How exactly do mail in ballots let voters verify their vote to third parties?
    - pstrateman 6y ago
      They fill-in the ballot in front of them and seal the envelope. Or worse the voter gives the other person the empty ballot with a signed envelope.
- pstrateman 6y ago
  Mail-in ballots are absolutely not a secret ballot. A secret ballot is one in which each voters vote is anonymous to EVERYBODY. Spouse, parent, landlord, employer, union boss, social worker. Case in point https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/limestone-county-social-worker-charged-134-felony-counts-involving-election-fraud https://www.texasattorneygeneral.gov/news/releases/limestone...
- bluejekyll 6y ago
  This doesn’t work the same way in every state. In my county of CA you only send back a single envelope with the ballots folded over. Instead there is a serial number you can tear off to validate that the ballot was counted. So it’s not doubly secret in the way you describe: https://elections.cdn.sos.ca.gov/vote-by-mail/pdf/guidance.pdf https://elections.cdn.sos.ca.gov/vote-by-mail/pdf/guidance.p...
- chrisco255 6y ago
  They're not secret at all. They can be canvassed and frequently are, by pushers who pressure people to vote a particular way.

throwaway_l33t 6y ago

Isn’t it reasonable to want the people who make a decision to know what they’re making a decision about? I want all the informed voters to vote but, by and large, uninformed voters make the outcome arbitrary.

jlgaddis 6y ago
I forget who said it and I won't even get the quote exactly right, but I'm reminded of something I once heard: > The greatest thing about a democracy is that every idiot is allowed to vote. > The worst thing about a democracy is that every idiot is allowed to vote.
- throwaway_l33t 6y ago
  Yeah, the problem is coming up with a test that actually identifies who’s “informed” without biasing the electorate unfairly.
- jhanschoo 6y ago
  If democracies don't allow idiots to vote, that creates a disenfranchised class that does not accept the government as legitimate. An important role of democracy is to stave off class conflict, arguably just as important or moreso than having a government that serves the people efficiently. A proper long-term solution is to have governments invest in critical thinking skills and education, but of course, it's a catch-22 situation.

rayiner 6y ago

Mail in voting is probably secure, but there are enough concerns where many countries with healthy democracies limit who can vote by mail: https://www.newsweek.com/voting-fraud-real-concern-just-look-around-world-opinion-1522535 https://www.newsweek.com/voting-fraud-real-concern-just-look... > Here is what we found. Besides the United States, there are 36 member states in the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD). Forty-seven percent ban mail-in voting unless the citizen is living abroad, and 30 percent require a photo ID to obtain a mail-in ballot. Fourteen percent of the countries ban mail-in voting even for those living abroad.