8 ms·

> You know, look around. It's pretty clear that the First Amendment is having some negative effects. None of which you enumerated > But my position is that no

> You know, look around. It's pretty clear that the First Amendment is having some negative effects. None of which you enumerated > But my position is that not having the First Amendment also has negative effects Protections of free speech are much weaker in most of the rest of the free and rich world. Why don’t those negative effects show up there?

AnimalMuppet 6y ago
> None of which you were willing to enumerate... Because it's pretty obvious. You're trying to score some cheap rhetorical points, and I decline to give them to you. > Protections of free speech are much weaker in most of the rest of the free and rich world. Why don’t those negative effects show up there? They don't at the moment show up strongly in most of the rest of the free and rich world. They show up in, for example, China. (Though negative effects show up in England from their libel laws, for example. They just aren't as flagrant as what you see in China.) To put the burden of proof on the other foot: Is there any reason to think that the absence of FA-type free speech guarantees is making things better in the rest of the free and rich world? If not, I'll keep the guarantee, because I really like being able to say what I please.
- peteretep 6y ago
  > Is there any reason to think that the absence of FA-type free speech guarantees is making things better in the rest of the free and rich world? Yes. It's the negatives you were unwilling to enumerate.
  - AnimalMuppet 6y ago
    But I suspect that some of the exact same negatives were showing up in Britain during Brexit, for example. (Can't say for sure, since I wasn't there and didn't see what the local conditions were.) And I note with some amusement that you are now the one unwilling to specify. Sauce for the goose...
    - peteretep 6y ago
      > And I note with some amusement that you are now the one unwilling to specify https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25077547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25077547 Anyway, in short, I'm sure (and I mean this) you're a smart and well-read guy or gal, but from your entirely circular arguments here I don't think you've ever seriously spent time considering what the alternatives to the first amendment are. Everything you've claimed to like about it is just as true in other free, rich countries, and the negatives you repeatedly decline to mention are largely absent. You've brought in libel as an example, which of course is _not_ protected by 1FA. The importance of 1FA at this point is a national religion.
  - damoe 6y ago
    From yesterdays news, Norway has now criminalized "hate speech" in a private context: https://www.out.com/news/2020/11/11/norway-has-made-biphobic-transphobic-speech-illegal https://www.out.com/news/2020/11/11/norway-has-made-biphobic... If you don't think this is negative, I guess we aren't talking about the same thing.
    - peteretep 6y ago
      > Norway has now criminalized "hate speech" Did you actually read the article before reposting it? It's been illegal there since 1981. The article simply says it's been extended to include new groups. Yes, I absolutely think hate speech should be restricted, and the laws of most countries agree with that, with the USA being a notable exception: > A majority of developed democracies have laws that restrict hate speech, including Australia, Denmark, France, Germany, India, South Africa, Sweden, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom Do I think hate speech in private should be restricted? I think _probably_ not, but I think this is for the elected legislature to decide, not an idea that is edict from several hundred years ago.
      - damoe 6y ago
        > Do I think hate speech in private should be restricted? I think _probably_ not, but I think this is for the elected legislature to decide, not an idea that is edict from several hundred years ago. So you _probably_ agree with me? This is the exact point. Many people that might agree that some public speech should be outlawed would recoil at the idea of private speech being similarly restricted. Yet this has been the case in Norway for 40 years. Now you might reply that it has caused no harm yet. And I admit I don't know the number of convictions for this type of private speech, but this is the very definition of chilling effect. Criminalization of private speech has been normalized. When the ratchet is tightened there will be no room to complain.
        peteretep 6y ago
        I’m not sure what you think we’re arguing here. Yes, as I clearly stated, my instincts are against the criminalisation of non-public hate speech. Freedom of speech is complicated and subtle, and that’s why a several hundred year law that binds the hands of the legislature to refine and update laws around it is a bad idea.

AnimalMuppet 6y ago

> None of which you were willing to enumerate... Because it's pretty obvious. You're trying to score some cheap rhetorical points, and I decline to give them to you. > Protections of free speech are much weaker in most of the rest of the free and rich world. Why don’t those negative effects show up there? They don't at the moment show up strongly in most of the rest of the free and rich world. They show up in, for example, China. (Though negative effects show up in England from their libel laws, for example. They just aren't as flagrant as what you see in China.) To put the burden of proof on the other foot: Is there any reason to think that the absence of FA-type free speech guarantees is making things better in the rest of the free and rich world? If not, I'll keep the guarantee, because I really like being able to say what I please.

peteretep 6y ago
> Is there any reason to think that the absence of FA-type free speech guarantees is making things better in the rest of the free and rich world? Yes. It's the negatives you were unwilling to enumerate.
- AnimalMuppet 6y ago
  But I suspect that some of the exact same negatives were showing up in Britain during Brexit, for example. (Can't say for sure, since I wasn't there and didn't see what the local conditions were.) And I note with some amusement that you are now the one unwilling to specify. Sauce for the goose...
  - peteretep 6y ago
    > And I note with some amusement that you are now the one unwilling to specify https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25077547 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25077547 Anyway, in short, I'm sure (and I mean this) you're a smart and well-read guy or gal, but from your entirely circular arguments here I don't think you've ever seriously spent time considering what the alternatives to the first amendment are. Everything you've claimed to like about it is just as true in other free, rich countries, and the negatives you repeatedly decline to mention are largely absent. You've brought in libel as an example, which of course is _not_ protected by 1FA. The importance of 1FA at this point is a national religion.
- damoe 6y ago
  From yesterdays news, Norway has now criminalized "hate speech" in a private context: https://www.out.com/news/2020/11/11/norway-has-made-biphobic-transphobic-speech-illegal https://www.out.com/news/2020/11/11/norway-has-made-biphobic... If you don't think this is negative, I guess we aren't talking about the same thing.
  - peteretep 6y ago
    > Norway has now criminalized "hate speech" Did you actually read the article before reposting it? It's been illegal there since 1981. The article simply says it's been extended to include new groups. Yes, I absolutely think hate speech should be restricted, and the laws of most countries agree with that, with the USA being a notable exception: > A majority of developed democracies have laws that restrict hate speech, including Australia, Denmark, France, Germany, India, South Africa, Sweden, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom Do I think hate speech in private should be restricted? I think _probably_ not, but I think this is for the elected legislature to decide, not an idea that is edict from several hundred years ago.
    - damoe 6y ago
      > Do I think hate speech in private should be restricted? I think _probably_ not, but I think this is for the elected legislature to decide, not an idea that is edict from several hundred years ago. So you _probably_ agree with me? This is the exact point. Many people that might agree that some public speech should be outlawed would recoil at the idea of private speech being similarly restricted. Yet this has been the case in Norway for 40 years. Now you might reply that it has caused no harm yet. And I admit I don't know the number of convictions for this type of private speech, but this is the very definition of chilling effect. Criminalization of private speech has been normalized. When the ratchet is tightened there will be no room to complain.
      - peteretep 6y ago
        I’m not sure what you think we’re arguing here. Yes, as I clearly stated, my instincts are against the criminalisation of non-public hate speech. Freedom of speech is complicated and subtle, and that’s why a several hundred year law that binds the hands of the legislature to refine and update laws around it is a bad idea.