5 ms·

Yeah, but at least reviewers being biased towards Black and Hispanic applicants have some reason to be: they are trying to correct for society-wide discriminati

by elil17 6y ago

Yeah, but at least reviewers being biased towards Black and Hispanic applicants have some reason to be: they are trying to correct for society-wide discrimination. You can argue that it's not their place to do that, or that trying to do that on a case by case basis is unfair, etc., but it is at least some reason. Discriminating against unattractive people, has no equivalent justification. In fact, discriminating against unattractive people exaggerates a society-wide bias against unattractive people.

AmericanChopper 6y ago
In my experience, most racists think that their views are motivated by noble intentions in one way or another.
- t-writescode 6y ago
  When the privileged classes have had generations to generate social networks that connect privileged people with privileged people (arguably one of the greatest privileges white people have, along with generational wealth and societies general presuppositions that go along with it), is it so bad to actively recognize that and go against it? Racism says an ethnicity is better or worse than another intrinsically. This is recognizing a section of our population has been, by and large, historically kept from making those connections and intentionally favoring them, not just for their sake but for the sake of their children’s children, by working to get them the same levels of connections the privileged class has historically had.
  - scarmig 6y ago
    Are Asian Americans privileged? For example, would you say that Vietnamese refugees and descendants of trafficked Chinese railroad laborers have been celebrated and given unfair advantages by white society?
    - sonotathrowaway 6y ago
      Asian-American encompasses an very diverse set of experiences in America, you can’t really create a cohesive narrative in the same way you could with other groups. The fact that you easily identify different groups with very distinct experiences should clue you in to that.
      - scarmig 6y ago
        So your claim is that Asian-Americans are diverse, while black and Hispanic people each form unvariegated, homogeneous identities? I very intentionally point out particular groups in my original comment, because proponents of race-based affirmative action always avoid grappling with why it's fair to discriminate against some relatively successful subgroups of Asian Americans by bringing up red herrings about Hmong and Cambodian refugees (who, it's worth pointing out, are typically excluded from the benefits of affirmative action anyway, which makes it even more of a red herring).
        sonotathrowaway 6y ago
        If you take the population of black Americans you’ll find that the overwhelming majority of them have their history in the ~3.9 million people trafficked during the slave trade and the following diaspora from the south throughout the 40s-60s, the majority as in 80%+. If you look at Asian Americans, you’ll find that the overwhelming majority of them do not descend from the ~20k transcontinental railroad laborers. It’s not hard to tell that their experiences must be vastly different, because 20k is a very small proportion of the total Asian American population, while 3.5m is a much larger percentage. I hope this help you with differentiating how relatively homogeneous groups are.
        collyw 6y ago
        At the same time it's fair to say that many of the Asian Americans will come from families that arrived with very little and have managed to become successful in the US within a generation or two, through hard work and disciple, no?
  - someperson 6y ago
    Racial groups are themselves not homogeneous. There are plenty of eg, black doctors who raise privileged black children, and plenty of eg, poor rural whites who grew up in poverty. Race-based affirmative action based on race doesn't do a good job of addressing the systemic problems with economic opportunity, and just causes rifts within society.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - majormajor 6y ago
      Opportunity-based affirmative action is something that I think would be desperately useful, but ... it would run into a lot of the same perceptual problems as race-based programs. The historical lines correlate strongly (though yes, not 100%) with race so the white kid who's in the program as a result of the affirmative action who grew up in a poor area with poor schools is going to blend in with the "regular" whites whereas the black kid who was the child of doctors is going to still be judged on the first thing people notice about them - their skin. Fixing our past sins will take both proactive action AND continual vigilance by all of us to fight our snap judgments and first impressions. But I believe it would be MUCH better than today's "merit" based systems which just create insane amount of pressure on kids starting in middle school or even earlier, to pad resumes and compete for the best schools, etc. That's a race to the (mental health) bottom of a whole different sort.
  - tachyonbeam 6y ago
    Tell that to the cis-white-male who was raised on a trailer park by a single mom when you explain to him why he doesn't get a scholarship though. Not everyone who's white or male is in a position of relative privilege. Affirmative action can create new forms of injustices as well. Somehow nowadays we think that deciding who gets what on the basis of sex and skin color is A-OK, because we're doing it right, we're doing it for the greater good... What could possibly go wrong?
    - krimi 6y ago
      Im pretty sure a cis white male can get a scholarship if coming from a poor background. This link for examplw comes first when doing a quick google search, and everyone on their promo picture is white: http://www.collegescholarships.org/scholarships/low-income.htm http://www.collegescholarships.org/scholarships/low-income.h...
      - jmpman 6y ago
        With the same grades as others?
      - collyw 6y ago
        In the UK white working class males (who received free school meals - an indicator of poverty) are the least likely group to go to university.
  - 0-_-0 6y ago
    I'm a white person, where can I find this mythical social network and generational wealth I can use?
    - mushbino 6y ago
      Traditionally? Ivy league schools or your parent's network that probably came from the same. Being white in America, or really anywhere else in the world comes with its privileges. If you haven't taken advantage of them, that's your own fault.
      - AmericanChopper 6y ago
        My parents were both drug addicts. How can I get in touch with their Ivy League network contacts?
        mushbino 6y ago
        This can be debated on a case by case basis, but that's not how racism works. We're talking statistics here. If you're white in the US you are statistically more likely to have privileges not afforded to others. If you're white re you more likely to be successful and face less discrimination from your point of birth going forward? Yes you are. https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/race-report-statistics https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/race-report-statistic...
        t-writescode 6y ago
        Further, if you do make it through the rough parts of your life and push through and find yourself in a situation where you _could_ get a job in some industrious, high-paying field, like hires like, so the reality that many other people of your ethnicity DO have those privileges allows you to take advantage of them, too because "oh hey, I was interviewing that guy and we really got along. he's just like me!"
        AmericanChopper 6y ago
        What you’re doing here is using the color of somebody’s skin to make very broad assumptions about the experiences of their life. Aside from the fact that these assumptions will often just be flat out wrong, it’s also a very racist way of viewing other people, and an especially arrogant way of treating them. If you think people who are systemically disadvantaged deserve some additional help, then target it to people who are systemically disadvantaged. You can do that without without creating any racial discrimination, or any of the harm that comes along with it.
  - AmericanChopper 6y ago
    It is racist to implement systems of racial discrimination. There is no way that you could modify the meaning of the word racism to the point that it no longer includes racial discrimination. Racism also doesn’t presuppose any particular motive. There are many reasons that somebody could choose to be racist, and if you look at real world racists, you’ll find that they offer a wide variety of justifications for their views. Just as you have done in this comment. You are making the argument that your racism is morally righteous, and that it will create positive outcome (which, coincidentally, certainly isn’t an uncommon position for racists to take). You’ve also made the mistake of presuming that the problem you describe requires a racist solution. It absolutely doesn’t. If wealth creates more inter-generational wealth, and poverty creates more inter-generational poverty, then you need a solution for social mobility, not to artificially elevate people based on ethnic group membership (which of course also disadvantages others based on their different ethnic group membership). A poor white or Asian kid, who’s family has always been poor, is going to face the same socio-economic disadvantages that you’re describing, and a wealthy black kid isn’t going to be facing them at all. The solution your offering (aside from being racist) doesn’t solve the problem you’re describing. In many cases, it actually makes it worse, because if you look at how such systems operate, you’ll find that a decent portion of the people who benefit from them actually come from relatively well off families.
  - scarmig 6y ago
    As an interesting thought experiment: Suppose we created a national social graph, and gave each person a value in it. High prestige, high social access people automatically get a certain high rating, and other nodes are given fractional social access ratings dependent on their neighboring nodes. The devil's in the details here, but you get the idea. Affirmative action could then be targeted depending on your level of social access. The less you have, the more affirmative action you get. This would allow for a lot more mixing of the social graph and result in a gradual leveling over time. Is this appealing, in lieu of race-based affirmative action?
    - t-writescode 6y ago
      How would you go about selling and implementing this in a way that wouldn't be political suicide?
- asciident 6y ago
  After reading your sentence, it occurred to me that it's no longer clear in today's age if you're referring to people using racial discrimination to hire underrepresented groups as racist, or the ones who oppose racial-based hiring and only hiring on "merit" as racist because they oppose race-based preferential hiring.
  - definingracist 6y ago
    > rac·ism (rā′sĭz′əm) n. > 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. > 2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
  - sonotathrowaway 6y ago
    I don’t think it matters. In general people that do harm to others in any way believe their actions are justified. It’s not special to racism, humans as a whole are pretty averse to causing unjustified harm to others.
  - jmpman 6y ago
    You mean the ones who follow the law as defined by Title VII of the Civil Rights bill?
boogies 6y ago
> they are trying to correct for society-wide discrimination Ironically, it turns out that discrimination against minorities + discrimination against majorities = worse outcomes for everyone. https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/the-painful-truth-about-affirmative-action/263122/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/the-pai...
- kayson 6y ago
  I came across similar conclusions when researching CA Prop 16, and it makes sense. Many affirmative action-ed students, by virtue of their systematic disadvantage, just can't keep up with their more privileged colleagues. I'm really disappointed, though, that the authors did not address the fact that this "mismatch" is still just another symptom of the problem affirmative action is trying to solve.
  - SamReidHughes 6y ago
    If you think these students faced a systematic disadvantage that made them unable to answer multiple choice questions about basic math problems, or material they were supposed to have learned during undergrad, you ought to point out what it actually is, and how big an effect size it has, and why.
  - john_moscow 6y ago
    Elephant in the room: most of the "privilege" you are talking about is literally parents giving a damn and pouring endless time and energy into teaching stuff to their kids and trying to engrave delayed gratification into their personality. But instead of rewarding and praising this behavior, and trying to make it a role model for the struggling minorities, we try to punish and discourage the kids that have learned the skills with their parents' help, so they won't succeed in life either. Of course, this doesn't affect the "admission by donation" kind of families, that leaves me wonder: is it about helping minorities succeed, or is it about replacing arrogant self-reliant challengers with grateful and loyal underperformers, to further entrench the elites' position?
PeterisP 6y ago
One form of discrimination begets another - since subpopulations often happen to be quite different in various aspects, positive discrimination towards one racial or ethnic group would be expected to cause some discrimination of other factors that happen to be correlated with belonging to that group.
collyw 6y ago
they are trying to correct for percieved society-wide discrimination

by elil17 6y ago

AmericanChopper 6y ago

In my experience, most racists think that their views are motivated by noble intentions in one way or another.

t-writescode 6y ago
When the privileged classes have had generations to generate social networks that connect privileged people with privileged people (arguably one of the greatest privileges white people have, along with generational wealth and societies general presuppositions that go along with it), is it so bad to actively recognize that and go against it? Racism says an ethnicity is better or worse than another intrinsically. This is recognizing a section of our population has been, by and large, historically kept from making those connections and intentionally favoring them, not just for their sake but for the sake of their children’s children, by working to get them the same levels of connections the privileged class has historically had.
- scarmig 6y ago
  Are Asian Americans privileged? For example, would you say that Vietnamese refugees and descendants of trafficked Chinese railroad laborers have been celebrated and given unfair advantages by white society?
  - sonotathrowaway 6y ago
    Asian-American encompasses an very diverse set of experiences in America, you can’t really create a cohesive narrative in the same way you could with other groups. The fact that you easily identify different groups with very distinct experiences should clue you in to that.
    - scarmig 6y ago
      So your claim is that Asian-Americans are diverse, while black and Hispanic people each form unvariegated, homogeneous identities? I very intentionally point out particular groups in my original comment, because proponents of race-based affirmative action always avoid grappling with why it's fair to discriminate against some relatively successful subgroups of Asian Americans by bringing up red herrings about Hmong and Cambodian refugees (who, it's worth pointing out, are typically excluded from the benefits of affirmative action anyway, which makes it even more of a red herring).
      - sonotathrowaway 6y ago
        If you take the population of black Americans you’ll find that the overwhelming majority of them have their history in the ~3.9 million people trafficked during the slave trade and the following diaspora from the south throughout the 40s-60s, the majority as in 80%+. If you look at Asian Americans, you’ll find that the overwhelming majority of them do not descend from the ~20k transcontinental railroad laborers. It’s not hard to tell that their experiences must be vastly different, because 20k is a very small proportion of the total Asian American population, while 3.5m is a much larger percentage. I hope this help you with differentiating how relatively homogeneous groups are.
        collyw 6y ago
        At the same time it's fair to say that many of the Asian Americans will come from families that arrived with very little and have managed to become successful in the US within a generation or two, through hard work and disciple, no?
- someperson 6y ago
  Racial groups are themselves not homogeneous. There are plenty of eg, black doctors who raise privileged black children, and plenty of eg, poor rural whites who grew up in poverty. Race-based affirmative action based on race doesn't do a good job of addressing the systemic problems with economic opportunity, and just causes rifts within society.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - majormajor 6y ago
    Opportunity-based affirmative action is something that I think would be desperately useful, but ... it would run into a lot of the same perceptual problems as race-based programs. The historical lines correlate strongly (though yes, not 100%) with race so the white kid who's in the program as a result of the affirmative action who grew up in a poor area with poor schools is going to blend in with the "regular" whites whereas the black kid who was the child of doctors is going to still be judged on the first thing people notice about them - their skin. Fixing our past sins will take both proactive action AND continual vigilance by all of us to fight our snap judgments and first impressions. But I believe it would be MUCH better than today's "merit" based systems which just create insane amount of pressure on kids starting in middle school or even earlier, to pad resumes and compete for the best schools, etc. That's a race to the (mental health) bottom of a whole different sort.
- tachyonbeam 6y ago
  Tell that to the cis-white-male who was raised on a trailer park by a single mom when you explain to him why he doesn't get a scholarship though. Not everyone who's white or male is in a position of relative privilege. Affirmative action can create new forms of injustices as well. Somehow nowadays we think that deciding who gets what on the basis of sex and skin color is A-OK, because we're doing it right, we're doing it for the greater good... What could possibly go wrong?
  - krimi 6y ago
    Im pretty sure a cis white male can get a scholarship if coming from a poor background. This link for examplw comes first when doing a quick google search, and everyone on their promo picture is white: http://www.collegescholarships.org/scholarships/low-income.htm http://www.collegescholarships.org/scholarships/low-income.h...
    - jmpman 6y ago
      With the same grades as others?
    - collyw 6y ago
      In the UK white working class males (who received free school meals - an indicator of poverty) are the least likely group to go to university.
- 0-_-0 6y ago
  I'm a white person, where can I find this mythical social network and generational wealth I can use?
  - mushbino 6y ago
    Traditionally? Ivy league schools or your parent's network that probably came from the same. Being white in America, or really anywhere else in the world comes with its privileges. If you haven't taken advantage of them, that's your own fault.
    - AmericanChopper 6y ago
      My parents were both drug addicts. How can I get in touch with their Ivy League network contacts?
      - mushbino 6y ago
        This can be debated on a case by case basis, but that's not how racism works. We're talking statistics here. If you're white in the US you are statistically more likely to have privileges not afforded to others. If you're white re you more likely to be successful and face less discrimination from your point of birth going forward? Yes you are. https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/race-report-statistics https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/race-report-statistic...
        t-writescode 6y ago
        Further, if you do make it through the rough parts of your life and push through and find yourself in a situation where you _could_ get a job in some industrious, high-paying field, like hires like, so the reality that many other people of your ethnicity DO have those privileges allows you to take advantage of them, too because "oh hey, I was interviewing that guy and we really got along. he's just like me!"
        AmericanChopper 6y ago
        What you’re doing here is using the color of somebody’s skin to make very broad assumptions about the experiences of their life. Aside from the fact that these assumptions will often just be flat out wrong, it’s also a very racist way of viewing other people, and an especially arrogant way of treating them. If you think people who are systemically disadvantaged deserve some additional help, then target it to people who are systemically disadvantaged. You can do that without without creating any racial discrimination, or any of the harm that comes along with it.
- AmericanChopper 6y ago
  It is racist to implement systems of racial discrimination. There is no way that you could modify the meaning of the word racism to the point that it no longer includes racial discrimination. Racism also doesn’t presuppose any particular motive. There are many reasons that somebody could choose to be racist, and if you look at real world racists, you’ll find that they offer a wide variety of justifications for their views. Just as you have done in this comment. You are making the argument that your racism is morally righteous, and that it will create positive outcome (which, coincidentally, certainly isn’t an uncommon position for racists to take). You’ve also made the mistake of presuming that the problem you describe requires a racist solution. It absolutely doesn’t. If wealth creates more inter-generational wealth, and poverty creates more inter-generational poverty, then you need a solution for social mobility, not to artificially elevate people based on ethnic group membership (which of course also disadvantages others based on their different ethnic group membership). A poor white or Asian kid, who’s family has always been poor, is going to face the same socio-economic disadvantages that you’re describing, and a wealthy black kid isn’t going to be facing them at all. The solution your offering (aside from being racist) doesn’t solve the problem you’re describing. In many cases, it actually makes it worse, because if you look at how such systems operate, you’ll find that a decent portion of the people who benefit from them actually come from relatively well off families.
- scarmig 6y ago
  As an interesting thought experiment: Suppose we created a national social graph, and gave each person a value in it. High prestige, high social access people automatically get a certain high rating, and other nodes are given fractional social access ratings dependent on their neighboring nodes. The devil's in the details here, but you get the idea. Affirmative action could then be targeted depending on your level of social access. The less you have, the more affirmative action you get. This would allow for a lot more mixing of the social graph and result in a gradual leveling over time. Is this appealing, in lieu of race-based affirmative action?
  - t-writescode 6y ago
    How would you go about selling and implementing this in a way that wouldn't be political suicide?
asciident 6y ago
After reading your sentence, it occurred to me that it's no longer clear in today's age if you're referring to people using racial discrimination to hire underrepresented groups as racist, or the ones who oppose racial-based hiring and only hiring on "merit" as racist because they oppose race-based preferential hiring.
- definingracist 6y ago
  > rac·ism (rā′sĭz′əm) n. > 1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others. > 2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
- sonotathrowaway 6y ago
  I don’t think it matters. In general people that do harm to others in any way believe their actions are justified. It’s not special to racism, humans as a whole are pretty averse to causing unjustified harm to others.
- jmpman 6y ago
  You mean the ones who follow the law as defined by Title VII of the Civil Rights bill?

boogies 6y ago

> they are trying to correct for society-wide discrimination Ironically, it turns out that discrimination against minorities + discrimination against majorities = worse outcomes for everyone. https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/the-painful-truth-about-affirmative-action/263122/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/10/the-pai...

kayson 6y ago
I came across similar conclusions when researching CA Prop 16, and it makes sense. Many affirmative action-ed students, by virtue of their systematic disadvantage, just can't keep up with their more privileged colleagues. I'm really disappointed, though, that the authors did not address the fact that this "mismatch" is still just another symptom of the problem affirmative action is trying to solve.
- SamReidHughes 6y ago
  If you think these students faced a systematic disadvantage that made them unable to answer multiple choice questions about basic math problems, or material they were supposed to have learned during undergrad, you ought to point out what it actually is, and how big an effect size it has, and why.
- john_moscow 6y ago
  Elephant in the room: most of the "privilege" you are talking about is literally parents giving a damn and pouring endless time and energy into teaching stuff to their kids and trying to engrave delayed gratification into their personality. But instead of rewarding and praising this behavior, and trying to make it a role model for the struggling minorities, we try to punish and discourage the kids that have learned the skills with their parents' help, so they won't succeed in life either. Of course, this doesn't affect the "admission by donation" kind of families, that leaves me wonder: is it about helping minorities succeed, or is it about replacing arrogant self-reliant challengers with grateful and loyal underperformers, to further entrench the elites' position?

PeterisP 6y ago

One form of discrimination begets another - since subpopulations often happen to be quite different in various aspects, positive discrimination towards one racial or ethnic group would be expected to cause some discrimination of other factors that happen to be correlated with belonging to that group.

collyw 6y ago

they are trying to correct for percieved society-wide discrimination