5 ms·

I will not be buying one of these first generation M1 devices because of issues like this. But in the long term I actually think it’s going to be a really good

I will not be buying one of these first generation M1 devices because of issues like this. But in the long term I actually think it’s going to be a really good thing for the industry if we can get more developers using non-x86 devices and deploying code to non-x86 servers.

wiredfool 6y ago
The entire thread is about the developers toolkit hardware, which didn’t have hardware support for virtualization. Obviously they done have access to the shipping m1 devices yet, which are supposed to have the hardware support.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> I will not be buying one of these first generation M1 devices because of issues like this. It is always a bit of a gamble to be on the bleeding edge with your production machine!
mhh__ 6y ago
Having people working on fast ARM machines will be good, although I do worry that apple will be apple and you'll never be able to run (say) Linux on said ARM chips. I used to be fairly laissez-faire about it but now I really think it should be legally required for at least some level of freedom for the end users to be supported (technologically rather than as in customer service) by big tech companies selling hardware
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  Wait, you can't install a non MacOS on these things? Are they basically an iPad in a notebook form factor?
  - damnencryption 6y ago
    What's a computer? iPad. People aren't laughing now, are they?
  - cercatrova 6y ago
    Presumably they are locked down. When asked about alternate OS, Craig Federighi said that it will be virtualization rather than booting other OS on the metal, ie Linux (and possibly Windows) VMs rather than Bootcamp. That's one of the big things stopping me from switching from the Intel version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg9F1Qjv3iU&t=3772 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg9F1Qjv3iU&t=3772
    - my123 6y ago
      Secure Boot can be disabled on Arm macs. Guess that Craig Federighi says this because Apple won't take care of drivers for other OSes. See this WWDC session: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686 https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686 and this manpage: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/RwcT8stYMY/ https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/RwcT8stYMY/
      - cercatrova 6y ago
        While that may be true, due to custom ARM instructions that Apple uses, it might be difficult to port various other OS onto it. We'll see though.
        vlovich123 6y ago
        I would think the bigger problems are drivers & secure boot rather than just instructions. M1 is a regular ARM processor so existing backends at a minimum would work fine even if they're not fully optimized (+ I would be a bit surprised if the M1 support for LLVM isn't upstreamed).
        cercatrova 6y ago
        Is that really true that M1 is just an ARM processor? I've heard the difficulty in emulating it is due to Apple specific things, whether they be drivers or new instructions.
        6y ago
  - alwillis 6y ago
    You can't install an operating system that's not signed by Apple. Also, the system partition is read-only (just like Catalina was). However, as they showed at WWDC [1], you can run Linux and other operating system using Apple's hypervisor. And it will run faster on an M1 Mac than it does natively on comparable Intel hardware. [1]: https://developer.apple.com/wwdc20/10686 https://developer.apple.com/wwdc20/10686
    - tambourine_man 6y ago
      You can sign your own kernel: https://twitter.com/never_released/status/1326315741080150016?s=21 https://twitter.com/never_released/status/132631574108015001...
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - totalZero 6y ago
      What exactly is comparable Intel hardware, anyway? That is to say, am I supposed to compare based on price, power consumption, process node equivalent, or some other factor? I ask because it's hard for me to understand the comparison otherwise.
deadbunny 6y ago
It also marks the end of using the same artifact (container) to debug issues which is a huge selling point of docker.
- freetime2 6y ago
  Yup it almost feels a little short sighted now the way we have embraced taking applications written in architecture independent languages like java, python, etc., and packaging them up in architecture-dependent artifacts.
oblio 6y ago
> But in the long term I actually think it’s going to be a really good thing for the industry if we can get more developers using non-x86 devices and deploying code to non-x86 servers. Why? If it's about the dominance of x86, I think in about 15-20 years there will be no other architectures in widespread use except for ARM and maybe RISC-V.
- egsmi 6y ago
  It took ARM 35 years to be an overnight success and x86 has a very large install base. It's not going anywhere. Remember this thread from not too long ago? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22837753 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22837753 x86 has lock in like that in spades. What I think is much more interesting is what the software industry will do with all these random coprocessors we find in chips these days. They seem much less stable than an instruction set but amazing speed gains can be had there, so it's enticing. If software libraries can bring the dream of the HAL to reality, that would be pretty cool. But from threads like these, it's safe to conclude we're not there just yet. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25057985 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25057985
  - alwillis 6y ago
    But x86 and Intel are losing badly in the highest growth part of the market: mobile/smart phones. Now $699 M1-based Mac mini is way faster than any Intel box in that price range and many that cost much more. The benchmarks that are starting to come out are just nuts, favoring the M1. Of course not all of the pieces are in place; that takes a while. But those developers that are on top of their game released universal versions of their apps that take full advantage of the M1 SoC and all of its benefits: unified memory, 8 CPU and GPU cores, Neural Engine, etc. It's day 1 of Big Sur being available and customers haven't gotten their M1 Macs yet, though they'll have them in a few days. In a couple of months, once the dust has settled and developers have gotten their hands on shipping hardware, people's understanding of what performance is possible on consumer-level hardware will be changed for good. There are Hollywood studios already planning to replace their high-end, pro Macs with M1 Mac minis because they'll be faster than what they have: https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/11/12/hollywood-thinks-new-mac-mini-could-be-huge-for-video-editors https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/11/12/hollywood-thinks-...
ubermonkey 6y ago
I mean, I wouldn't buy first-gen of anything from anybody. When Apple went Intel, I bought year2 or 3 hardware. What they're showing now is pretty damn impressive. I look forward to the M2 or whatever variants that would be a more direct replacement for the 2019 rMBP I have now (6 cores, 32GB RAM). But I'm happy to wait. If you don't have virtualization needs, and your use case is pretty straightforward, these are gonna be amazing machines. They're just not the power user machines -- I mean, except for those who insist on bleeding-edge living.

wiredfool 6y ago

The entire thread is about the developers toolkit hardware, which didn’t have hardware support for virtualization. Obviously they done have access to the shipping m1 devices yet, which are supposed to have the hardware support.

ogre_codes 6y ago

> I will not be buying one of these first generation M1 devices because of issues like this. It is always a bit of a gamble to be on the bleeding edge with your production machine!

mhh__ 6y ago

Having people working on fast ARM machines will be good, although I do worry that apple will be apple and you'll never be able to run (say) Linux on said ARM chips. I used to be fairly laissez-faire about it but now I really think it should be legally required for at least some level of freedom for the end users to be supported (technologically rather than as in customer service) by big tech companies selling hardware

ForHackernews 6y ago
Wait, you can't install a non MacOS on these things? Are they basically an iPad in a notebook form factor?
- damnencryption 6y ago
  What's a computer? iPad. People aren't laughing now, are they?
- cercatrova 6y ago
  Presumably they are locked down. When asked about alternate OS, Craig Federighi said that it will be virtualization rather than booting other OS on the metal, ie Linux (and possibly Windows) VMs rather than Bootcamp. That's one of the big things stopping me from switching from the Intel version. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg9F1Qjv3iU&t=3772 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hg9F1Qjv3iU&t=3772
  - my123 6y ago
    Secure Boot can be disabled on Arm macs. Guess that Craig Federighi says this because Apple won't take care of drivers for other OSes. See this WWDC session: https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686 https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686 and this manpage: https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/RwcT8stYMY/ https://pastebin.ubuntu.com/p/RwcT8stYMY/
    - cercatrova 6y ago
      While that may be true, due to custom ARM instructions that Apple uses, it might be difficult to port various other OS onto it. We'll see though.
      - vlovich123 6y ago
        I would think the bigger problems are drivers & secure boot rather than just instructions. M1 is a regular ARM processor so existing backends at a minimum would work fine even if they're not fully optimized (+ I would be a bit surprised if the M1 support for LLVM isn't upstreamed).
        cercatrova 6y ago
        Is that really true that M1 is just an ARM processor? I've heard the difficulty in emulating it is due to Apple specific things, whether they be drivers or new instructions.
        6y ago
- alwillis 6y ago
  You can't install an operating system that's not signed by Apple. Also, the system partition is read-only (just like Catalina was). However, as they showed at WWDC [1], you can run Linux and other operating system using Apple's hypervisor. And it will run faster on an M1 Mac than it does natively on comparable Intel hardware. [1]: https://developer.apple.com/wwdc20/10686 https://developer.apple.com/wwdc20/10686
  - tambourine_man 6y ago
    You can sign your own kernel: https://twitter.com/never_released/status/1326315741080150016?s=21 https://twitter.com/never_released/status/132631574108015001...
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - totalZero 6y ago
    What exactly is comparable Intel hardware, anyway? That is to say, am I supposed to compare based on price, power consumption, process node equivalent, or some other factor? I ask because it's hard for me to understand the comparison otherwise.

deadbunny 6y ago

It also marks the end of using the same artifact (container) to debug issues which is a huge selling point of docker.

freetime2 6y ago
Yup it almost feels a little short sighted now the way we have embraced taking applications written in architecture independent languages like java, python, etc., and packaging them up in architecture-dependent artifacts.

oblio 6y ago

> But in the long term I actually think it’s going to be a really good thing for the industry if we can get more developers using non-x86 devices and deploying code to non-x86 servers. Why? If it's about the dominance of x86, I think in about 15-20 years there will be no other architectures in widespread use except for ARM and maybe RISC-V.

egsmi 6y ago
It took ARM 35 years to be an overnight success and x86 has a very large install base. It's not going anywhere. Remember this thread from not too long ago? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22837753 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22837753 x86 has lock in like that in spades. What I think is much more interesting is what the software industry will do with all these random coprocessors we find in chips these days. They seem much less stable than an instruction set but amazing speed gains can be had there, so it's enticing. If software libraries can bring the dream of the HAL to reality, that would be pretty cool. But from threads like these, it's safe to conclude we're not there just yet. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25057985 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25057985
- alwillis 6y ago
  But x86 and Intel are losing badly in the highest growth part of the market: mobile/smart phones. Now $699 M1-based Mac mini is way faster than any Intel box in that price range and many that cost much more. The benchmarks that are starting to come out are just nuts, favoring the M1. Of course not all of the pieces are in place; that takes a while. But those developers that are on top of their game released universal versions of their apps that take full advantage of the M1 SoC and all of its benefits: unified memory, 8 CPU and GPU cores, Neural Engine, etc. It's day 1 of Big Sur being available and customers haven't gotten their M1 Macs yet, though they'll have them in a few days. In a couple of months, once the dust has settled and developers have gotten their hands on shipping hardware, people's understanding of what performance is possible on consumer-level hardware will be changed for good. There are Hollywood studios already planning to replace their high-end, pro Macs with M1 Mac minis because they'll be faster than what they have: https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/11/12/hollywood-thinks-new-mac-mini-could-be-huge-for-video-editors https://appleinsider.com/articles/20/11/12/hollywood-thinks-...

ubermonkey 6y ago

I mean, I wouldn't buy first-gen of anything from anybody. When Apple went Intel, I bought year2 or 3 hardware. What they're showing now is pretty damn impressive. I look forward to the M2 or whatever variants that would be a more direct replacement for the 2019 rMBP I have now (6 cores, 32GB RAM). But I'm happy to wait. If you don't have virtualization needs, and your use case is pretty straightforward, these are gonna be amazing machines. They're just not the power user machines -- I mean, except for those who insist on bleeding-edge living.