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Twice bitten, thrice shy. Every MacOS upgrade for the past 5+ years has been a bag of hurt: regressions in functionality and stability, annoying "features" like

Twice bitten, thrice shy. Every MacOS upgrade for the past 5+ years has been a bag of hurt: regressions in functionality and stability, annoying "features" like Notification Center and Catalina warning nags, various PITAs on fixing UNIX/dev toolchains, all for little to no benefit. I've stopped upgrading all my machines (other than security updates), unless forced by a mission-critical app or a new machine.

_fat_santa 6y ago
I have similar feelings. On the one hand I would love to check out the new version of MacOS. On the other hand I use my machine for work and can't afford any downtime. I upgraded to Catalina 5-8 months after it was released, mostly because the initial rollout was so rocky (at least according to the articles on HN). Going to keep my eyes peeled for reviews here in the next few weeks. Hopefully this is a more stable release than Catalina.
- acdha 6y ago
  > I upgraded to Catalina 5-8 months after it was released, mostly because the initial rollout was so rocky (at least according to the articles on HN). The last part is the key: people who have problems usually complain loudly and widely, so there's a huge sampling bias. I've been using and supporting Macs professionally since the 90s. In that time, I've had exactly one case where a day one upgrade broke something — 10.4 shipped with a bug where all NFS exports were read-only — as long as you did a check first to confirm that any commercial software you were using was supporting (e.g. Adobe sometimes had fairly long delays). There are two common problems you'll see frequently: a system which was already failing will be attributed to the new OS (I've seen people claim it broke their hard drive, when it was really just the first problem which couldn't be excused as a fluke), and people will often say that their system got slow because Spotlight / Photos were reindexing in the background.
- vmchale 6y ago
  My speakers were sporadically broken after Catalina lol.
  - FabHK 6y ago
    Hardware problem, or just no sound? I've found that force-quitting `coreaudiod` would fix missing sound.
- alwillis 6y ago
  Going to keep my eyes peeled for reviews here in the next few weeks. Hopefully this is a more stable release than Catalina. I had several problems with the early releases of Catalina, including my Apple-made USB keyboard not being recognized. Even after it seemingly was fixed, a dot release would break it again. I did at least two clean installs to resolve the problem once a stable version of Catalina was released. It's completely different with Big Sur. I upgraded my work machine to Big Sur. After the Spotlight indexing was done, everything was working as it was previously, except I had the latest and greatest operating system. It's still only been a few days but so far, I have no complaints about Big Sur. Loving the new desktop dynamic illustrations and how much faster Safari is, even compared to Catalina. Obviously YMMV but so far, it's been smooth sailing with Big Sur.
  - jamil7 6y ago
    I’ve been on it since one of the earlier betas for testing reasons and it’s been a bumpy ride, I’ve filed more feedback than before. It’s definitely stabilised a lot though and feels reasonably solid today. There’s a few nagging visual bugs and weird performance spikes floating around though.
pkulak 6y ago
Same here. I eventually upgraded to a Linux distro and couldn't be happier. What finally did it for me was when I did an "ls" in a terminal after an upgrade, accidentally hit the wrong button when the OS asked for permission, and locked my terminal out of file system access. Mac OS is no longer any good for professional use, outside of media creation.
- azinman2 6y ago
  You can easily change the permissions in settings. This is a security feature.
- rch 6y ago
  What's the best ~15" Linux laptop to ask for as a new hire these days?
  - gen3 6y ago
    I haven't had an issue with Dell laptops.
    - ska 6y ago
      Over many years, models, and indirectly hundreds of laptops (buying for teams, not myself) I'm pretty confident that Dells have a higher failure rate than many alternatives, but if you buy the higher tier support they are also more responsive than most. NB if you fall back on out of warranty and/or lower tier from them, support is not good.
  - paulsmal 6y ago
    Dell XPS 15, Thinkpads
    - Lio 6y ago
      XPS13 is very good for Linux but I don’t think I’d recommend an XPS15. Dell don’t sell them with Linux themselves. You’d be better looking at the Precision line if you want a 15” Dell with Linux.
r00fus 6y ago
I've been fine. Of course I wait till at least 2 dot releases afterwards.
eyeball 6y ago
I still haven’t take Catalina update.
seanalltogether 6y ago
Unfortunately for me, Xcode is mission critical, and Apple always restricts updates to it about 6 months into any new OS.
srmatto 6y ago
Same, every year since 10.13 I am offset about one year from the current MacOS release so a few weeks ago I upgraded to Catalina/10.15.7.
grishka 6y ago
I'm still on Mojave and it's okay honestly. It does everything I need my OS to do. I see no benefit in upgrading to Catalina, especially with it not supporting 32-bit apps and introducing new annoyances under the guise of "security", and Big Sur doesn't (officially) run on my computer at all.
- timmit 6y ago
  sidecar is one thing I like from Catalina.
- dividedbyzero 6y ago
  Granular app permissions are a huge thing for me; I really like being able to keep certain apps from having e.g. full disk access or camera access. Plus sidecar, as sibling already mentioned.
  - grishka 6y ago
    Mojave has some of these. Except I don't like filesystem permissions, e.g. "access to photos" which is really "access to ~/Pictures". I'm fine with unix permissions on files and directories. I wish internet access was a permission instead. As far as Sidecar goes, I don't own an iPad and don't plan to, so not relevant to me by any stretch of imagination.
GnarfGnarf 6y ago
Have you tried dual-booting the newest OS from an SD or USB memory card? Hold down the Option key at power on and it prompts you for boot device. It runs a bit slower, but at least you can try it out.
- lukifer 6y ago
  True, that's an option; but there's been nothing in new releases that justifies going through the effort (for my own n=1, anyway). It's not that the new releases are awful; they're just a hassle that fail a cost-benefit analysis.
  - GnarfGnarf 6y ago
    I take your point. I don't have a choice, I have to confirm my app runs on the latest version because some of my customers will be going there :o)
bromuro 6y ago
I am one of those that likes to keep my mac updated to latest. I never have been hit by a problem when upgrading in the last 5 years so i have still full confidence on this one :)
lexusgx 6y ago
>Catalina warning nags I appreciate those nags. Those nags clued me into app behavior; I learned what apps are requesting keyboard access even when they're not in focus, for instance. Blindly trusting our apps to access our keyboards and not gradually become keyloggers is a recurring problem in our industry, it seems, so that was a very welcome change.
- elcritch 6y ago
  The nags for regular apps don’t bother me too much, but the fact that I still can’t figure out how to run GDB worries me. The old CLI overrides don’t work in Catalina anymore. I’ve only ever owned Mac laptops and I’m seriously considering switching to a Linux/arm on the next laptop. I’m fine with the lack of ability to run random apps on my iPad, but not on my computer. Big Sur apparently won’t let me run the ZFS extensions or my vpn software (or I gotta hope the vpn has an upgrade). Apple has gone too far, from improved security defaults to whittling away the ability to override those options at all and run my own software.
  - Osiris 6y ago
    I switched to Linux after the TouchBar was introduced. I've been using it for work exclusively for 3 years. It crashes, hangs, and generally acts weird every day. It's not always greener on the other side. The upside is 1) total customization, 2) if there is a problem you have a lot more power to fix it. There are just a lot more problems. Here's a list of my daily Linux issues (NVIDIA driver required to use external monitors) 1. Resume from sleep causes browsers and electron apps to fail to draw anything. I have to close and restart them. I found a workaround for Chrome (turn on Vulkan) but that's not possible for Slack. 2. Periodically Linux reports I have no internal speakers and I have to kick pulseaudio 3. NVIDIA driver page faults several times a day requiring me to unplug, replug monitors and run xrandr to reconfigure the displays. 4. After an upgrade my system now boots to TTY and I can't figure out how to fix it. 5. Zoom annotations don't work 6. Discord audio didn't work until I found an obscure workaround. 7. External monitor detection doesn't work 8. The laptop display doesn't go into power saving mode ever 9. Usb devices have to be unplugged/replugged to be detected 10. Complete system crashes (hang with no recognition of any input, so no way to switch to TTY) So, pros and cons. edit: I should note that the last Macbook (2017 I think) would kernel panic randomly when connecting or disconnecting external monitors (like when going to a meeting).
markdown 6y ago
Same. I'm still on Mojave
tofuahdude 6y ago
Totally agreed. There's always disasters. I have a friend who effectively works on code quality at apple who's always talking about how seriously they take this kind of stuff... and yet, there are without fail always issues in their flagship OS releases. I don't get it.
agumonkey 6y ago
I feel like Apple exploded due to synergies between mac / ipod then iphone iwatch but now they're falling into the unified trap (a bit like MS did)
chaostheory 6y ago
So far this one has been great... for me. Everything feels faster now and I'm digging the new UI. I'm pleasantly surprised.

_fat_santa 6y ago

I have similar feelings. On the one hand I would love to check out the new version of MacOS. On the other hand I use my machine for work and can't afford any downtime. I upgraded to Catalina 5-8 months after it was released, mostly because the initial rollout was so rocky (at least according to the articles on HN). Going to keep my eyes peeled for reviews here in the next few weeks. Hopefully this is a more stable release than Catalina.

acdha 6y ago
> I upgraded to Catalina 5-8 months after it was released, mostly because the initial rollout was so rocky (at least according to the articles on HN). The last part is the key: people who have problems usually complain loudly and widely, so there's a huge sampling bias. I've been using and supporting Macs professionally since the 90s. In that time, I've had exactly one case where a day one upgrade broke something — 10.4 shipped with a bug where all NFS exports were read-only — as long as you did a check first to confirm that any commercial software you were using was supporting (e.g. Adobe sometimes had fairly long delays). There are two common problems you'll see frequently: a system which was already failing will be attributed to the new OS (I've seen people claim it broke their hard drive, when it was really just the first problem which couldn't be excused as a fluke), and people will often say that their system got slow because Spotlight / Photos were reindexing in the background.
vmchale 6y ago
My speakers were sporadically broken after Catalina lol.
- FabHK 6y ago
  Hardware problem, or just no sound? I've found that force-quitting `coreaudiod` would fix missing sound.
alwillis 6y ago
Going to keep my eyes peeled for reviews here in the next few weeks. Hopefully this is a more stable release than Catalina. I had several problems with the early releases of Catalina, including my Apple-made USB keyboard not being recognized. Even after it seemingly was fixed, a dot release would break it again. I did at least two clean installs to resolve the problem once a stable version of Catalina was released. It's completely different with Big Sur. I upgraded my work machine to Big Sur. After the Spotlight indexing was done, everything was working as it was previously, except I had the latest and greatest operating system. It's still only been a few days but so far, I have no complaints about Big Sur. Loving the new desktop dynamic illustrations and how much faster Safari is, even compared to Catalina. Obviously YMMV but so far, it's been smooth sailing with Big Sur.
- jamil7 6y ago
  I’ve been on it since one of the earlier betas for testing reasons and it’s been a bumpy ride, I’ve filed more feedback than before. It’s definitely stabilised a lot though and feels reasonably solid today. There’s a few nagging visual bugs and weird performance spikes floating around though.

pkulak 6y ago

Same here. I eventually upgraded to a Linux distro and couldn't be happier. What finally did it for me was when I did an "ls" in a terminal after an upgrade, accidentally hit the wrong button when the OS asked for permission, and locked my terminal out of file system access. Mac OS is no longer any good for professional use, outside of media creation.

azinman2 6y ago
You can easily change the permissions in settings. This is a security feature.
rch 6y ago
What's the best ~15" Linux laptop to ask for as a new hire these days?
- gen3 6y ago
  I haven't had an issue with Dell laptops.
  - ska 6y ago
    Over many years, models, and indirectly hundreds of laptops (buying for teams, not myself) I'm pretty confident that Dells have a higher failure rate than many alternatives, but if you buy the higher tier support they are also more responsive than most. NB if you fall back on out of warranty and/or lower tier from them, support is not good.
- paulsmal 6y ago
  Dell XPS 15, Thinkpads
  - Lio 6y ago
    XPS13 is very good for Linux but I don’t think I’d recommend an XPS15. Dell don’t sell them with Linux themselves. You’d be better looking at the Precision line if you want a 15” Dell with Linux.

r00fus 6y ago

I've been fine. Of course I wait till at least 2 dot releases afterwards.

eyeball 6y ago

I still haven’t take Catalina update.

seanalltogether 6y ago

Unfortunately for me, Xcode is mission critical, and Apple always restricts updates to it about 6 months into any new OS.

srmatto 6y ago

Same, every year since 10.13 I am offset about one year from the current MacOS release so a few weeks ago I upgraded to Catalina/10.15.7.

grishka 6y ago

I'm still on Mojave and it's okay honestly. It does everything I need my OS to do. I see no benefit in upgrading to Catalina, especially with it not supporting 32-bit apps and introducing new annoyances under the guise of "security", and Big Sur doesn't (officially) run on my computer at all.

timmit 6y ago
sidecar is one thing I like from Catalina.
dividedbyzero 6y ago
Granular app permissions are a huge thing for me; I really like being able to keep certain apps from having e.g. full disk access or camera access. Plus sidecar, as sibling already mentioned.
- grishka 6y ago
  Mojave has some of these. Except I don't like filesystem permissions, e.g. "access to photos" which is really "access to ~/Pictures". I'm fine with unix permissions on files and directories. I wish internet access was a permission instead. As far as Sidecar goes, I don't own an iPad and don't plan to, so not relevant to me by any stretch of imagination.

GnarfGnarf 6y ago

Have you tried dual-booting the newest OS from an SD or USB memory card? Hold down the Option key at power on and it prompts you for boot device. It runs a bit slower, but at least you can try it out.

lukifer 6y ago
True, that's an option; but there's been nothing in new releases that justifies going through the effort (for my own n=1, anyway). It's not that the new releases are awful; they're just a hassle that fail a cost-benefit analysis.
- GnarfGnarf 6y ago
  I take your point. I don't have a choice, I have to confirm my app runs on the latest version because some of my customers will be going there :o)

bromuro 6y ago

I am one of those that likes to keep my mac updated to latest. I never have been hit by a problem when upgrading in the last 5 years so i have still full confidence on this one :)

lexusgx 6y ago

>Catalina warning nags I appreciate those nags. Those nags clued me into app behavior; I learned what apps are requesting keyboard access even when they're not in focus, for instance. Blindly trusting our apps to access our keyboards and not gradually become keyloggers is a recurring problem in our industry, it seems, so that was a very welcome change.

elcritch 6y ago
The nags for regular apps don’t bother me too much, but the fact that I still can’t figure out how to run GDB worries me. The old CLI overrides don’t work in Catalina anymore. I’ve only ever owned Mac laptops and I’m seriously considering switching to a Linux/arm on the next laptop. I’m fine with the lack of ability to run random apps on my iPad, but not on my computer. Big Sur apparently won’t let me run the ZFS extensions or my vpn software (or I gotta hope the vpn has an upgrade). Apple has gone too far, from improved security defaults to whittling away the ability to override those options at all and run my own software.
- Osiris 6y ago
  I switched to Linux after the TouchBar was introduced. I've been using it for work exclusively for 3 years. It crashes, hangs, and generally acts weird every day. It's not always greener on the other side. The upside is 1) total customization, 2) if there is a problem you have a lot more power to fix it. There are just a lot more problems. Here's a list of my daily Linux issues (NVIDIA driver required to use external monitors) 1. Resume from sleep causes browsers and electron apps to fail to draw anything. I have to close and restart them. I found a workaround for Chrome (turn on Vulkan) but that's not possible for Slack. 2. Periodically Linux reports I have no internal speakers and I have to kick pulseaudio 3. NVIDIA driver page faults several times a day requiring me to unplug, replug monitors and run xrandr to reconfigure the displays. 4. After an upgrade my system now boots to TTY and I can't figure out how to fix it. 5. Zoom annotations don't work 6. Discord audio didn't work until I found an obscure workaround. 7. External monitor detection doesn't work 8. The laptop display doesn't go into power saving mode ever 9. Usb devices have to be unplugged/replugged to be detected 10. Complete system crashes (hang with no recognition of any input, so no way to switch to TTY) So, pros and cons. edit: I should note that the last Macbook (2017 I think) would kernel panic randomly when connecting or disconnecting external monitors (like when going to a meeting).

markdown 6y ago

Same. I'm still on Mojave

tofuahdude 6y ago

Totally agreed. There's always disasters. I have a friend who effectively works on code quality at apple who's always talking about how seriously they take this kind of stuff... and yet, there are without fail always issues in their flagship OS releases. I don't get it.

agumonkey 6y ago

I feel like Apple exploded due to synergies between mac / ipod then iphone iwatch but now they're falling into the unified trap (a bit like MS did)

chaostheory 6y ago

So far this one has been great... for me. Everything feels faster now and I'm digging the new UI. I'm pleasantly surprised.