8 ms·

pip in virtualenv. It is solved problem.

coldtea 6y ago
Not even pip developers believe "pip in virtualenv" makes python dependencies and package management a "solved problem"...
- user5994461 6y ago
  90% of professional python developers believe that python dependencies is a solved problem (with pip and virtualenv). The rest is too vocal.
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >90% of professional python developers believe that python dependencies is a solved problem (with pip and virtualenv). 99% of professional python developers think that you've pulled this statistic out of your ass!
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - webmaven 6y ago
      > >90% of professional python developers believe that python dependencies is a solved problem (with pip and virtualenv). > 99% of professional python developers think that you've pulled this statistic out of your ass! 72.6% of all statistics are made up, anyway.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > 90% of professional python developers believe that python dependencies is a solved problem (with pip and virtualenv). I doubt that even 90% of those professional python developers who believe that python dependencies is a solved problem believe that it is solved with pip and virtualenv; the conda faction has to be bigger than 10%. Plus there's the people that think pip/venv aren't enough, but that tools on top of them plug the gaps (poetry). But I think that the share of professional developers who see it as a solved problem at all is less than 90%. Obviously, we've all got some way of working with/around the issues, that doesn't mean that we don't feel that they exist.
    - user5994461 6y ago
      If I can give my anecdote, the last 3 companies I worked at that were heavily using Python and the hundreds of developers in them were all relying on pip and virtualenv. And it worked just fine no matter what the HN crowd would have you believe. conda had minor usage in the last one for building a handful of special projects mixing C++ and Python code (highly specific code in the finance industry), after build the artifacts could go into the python repository (internal pypi) and be usable with pip. Everything was down to pip at the end of the day. As a matter of fact, the guys who used and pushed for conda were also the ones pushing the hardest for pip because pip is the answer to everything.
      - jevgeni 6y ago
        Well, if the consumers are all devs, then sure.
      - ghshephard 6y ago
        Well - you can add one more to your anecdote - my current job is 13 active developers, 200+ megabytes of 1500+ .py files developed over 9 years by 30+ developers. It's all virtualenv/wrappers + pip. Our data scientists like Conda - but our developers don't touch it.
    - jevgeni 6y ago
      My pet conspiracy theory is that Docker was created in part because Python code is un-shipable otherwise.
  - eeZah7Ux 6y ago
    Spot on!
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- robmurrer 6y ago
  I'm talking about Susie Q and Joe Sixer. The amount of fiddling with package systems, build, and container systems is an anti-pattern. One guy on a small team sets up and controls the stuffs. Individual contributors shouldn't be messing with the env or putting new packages in :)
ghshephard 6y ago
I often wonder what problem is being solved by Poetry, that pip with virtualenv(+wrappers) doesn't solve perfectly well. requirements.txt ensures you have the right version of everything in production, and virtualenv lets you explore various versions of libraries without risking any destabilization of your development environment. I struggle to see what spending time looking at Poetry will yield in terms of any actual benefit, though I would love to be informed/educated otherwise.
- freehunter 6y ago
  virtualenv always feels like a hack to me. Too many times I’ve forgotten to activate the virtualenv halfway through a project and now I’m troubleshooting all the problems I just caused with some packages installed in the virtualenv and some globally and oh half of them aren’t in my packages.txt so now I can’t remember which package I needed for this... I don’t expect my dev tools to be idiot proof, but they should at least try to be “I’ve been hacking for 18 hours straight and I just need to commit this last line and I can finally go to bed” proof.
  - ghshephard 6y ago
    One thing that helps is: # Don't let people touch anything in the root environment export PIP_REQUIRE_VIRTUALENV=true That prevents you from ever doing a pip install in your root environment. I've got about 20 different pip environments, and virtualenvwrappers (workon xxxx) makes it pretty seamless for me to hop back and forth between sessions. I'm also pretty dedicated to doing all my work in tmux windows - so my state in a half dozen virtualenvs is changed by changing my window (which I've done a workon) I guess what I'm really interested in is, "The last three years of my life I've used virtualenv/wrappers + pip, and haven't run into any problems. What can Poetry do for me, and why should I change my work habits? Genuinely interested in using new and better tools.
- gghhzzgghhzz 6y ago
  Same here. 20 years on python and I've never done anything more than clone a repo, venv and pip install -r requirements. And then cd && python -m to run the source code, maybe set PYTHONPATH in some cases. I don't think I've even written a setup.py . Obviously there's a whole world of development and deployment where these things are relevant, but there's also a massive world where nobody even understands what they are missing.
smetj 6y ago
Agreed. I don't get the fuzz about pip/setuptools/virtualenv. I have shipped and deployed Python code countless times, never encountered an issue a `setup.py` couldn't solve.

Not even pip developers believe "pip in virtualenv" makes python dependencies and package management a "solved problem"...

user5994461 6y ago
90% of professional python developers believe that python dependencies is a solved problem (with pip and virtualenv). The rest is too vocal.
- coldtea 6y ago
  >90% of professional python developers believe that python dependencies is a solved problem (with pip and virtualenv). 99% of professional python developers think that you've pulled this statistic out of your ass!
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - webmaven 6y ago
    > >90% of professional python developers believe that python dependencies is a solved problem (with pip and virtualenv). > 99% of professional python developers think that you've pulled this statistic out of your ass! 72.6% of all statistics are made up, anyway.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > 90% of professional python developers believe that python dependencies is a solved problem (with pip and virtualenv). I doubt that even 90% of those professional python developers who believe that python dependencies is a solved problem believe that it is solved with pip and virtualenv; the conda faction has to be bigger than 10%. Plus there's the people that think pip/venv aren't enough, but that tools on top of them plug the gaps (poetry). But I think that the share of professional developers who see it as a solved problem at all is less than 90%. Obviously, we've all got some way of working with/around the issues, that doesn't mean that we don't feel that they exist.
  - user5994461 6y ago
    If I can give my anecdote, the last 3 companies I worked at that were heavily using Python and the hundreds of developers in them were all relying on pip and virtualenv. And it worked just fine no matter what the HN crowd would have you believe. conda had minor usage in the last one for building a handful of special projects mixing C++ and Python code (highly specific code in the finance industry), after build the artifacts could go into the python repository (internal pypi) and be usable with pip. Everything was down to pip at the end of the day. As a matter of fact, the guys who used and pushed for conda were also the ones pushing the hardest for pip because pip is the answer to everything.
    - jevgeni 6y ago
      Well, if the consumers are all devs, then sure.
    - ghshephard 6y ago
      Well - you can add one more to your anecdote - my current job is 13 active developers, 200+ megabytes of 1500+ .py files developed over 9 years by 30+ developers. It's all virtualenv/wrappers + pip. Our data scientists like Conda - but our developers don't touch it.
  - jevgeni 6y ago
    My pet conspiracy theory is that Docker was created in part because Python code is un-shipable otherwise.
- eeZah7Ux 6y ago
  Spot on!
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
robmurrer 6y ago
I'm talking about Susie Q and Joe Sixer. The amount of fiddling with package systems, build, and container systems is an anti-pattern. One guy on a small team sets up and controls the stuffs. Individual contributors shouldn't be messing with the env or putting new packages in :)

ghshephard 6y ago

I often wonder what problem is being solved by Poetry, that pip with virtualenv(+wrappers) doesn't solve perfectly well. requirements.txt ensures you have the right version of everything in production, and virtualenv lets you explore various versions of libraries without risking any destabilization of your development environment. I struggle to see what spending time looking at Poetry will yield in terms of any actual benefit, though I would love to be informed/educated otherwise.

freehunter 6y ago
virtualenv always feels like a hack to me. Too many times I’ve forgotten to activate the virtualenv halfway through a project and now I’m troubleshooting all the problems I just caused with some packages installed in the virtualenv and some globally and oh half of them aren’t in my packages.txt so now I can’t remember which package I needed for this... I don’t expect my dev tools to be idiot proof, but they should at least try to be “I’ve been hacking for 18 hours straight and I just need to commit this last line and I can finally go to bed” proof.
- ghshephard 6y ago
  One thing that helps is: # Don't let people touch anything in the root environment export PIP_REQUIRE_VIRTUALENV=true That prevents you from ever doing a pip install in your root environment. I've got about 20 different pip environments, and virtualenvwrappers (workon xxxx) makes it pretty seamless for me to hop back and forth between sessions. I'm also pretty dedicated to doing all my work in tmux windows - so my state in a half dozen virtualenvs is changed by changing my window (which I've done a workon) I guess what I'm really interested in is, "The last three years of my life I've used virtualenv/wrappers + pip, and haven't run into any problems. What can Poetry do for me, and why should I change my work habits? Genuinely interested in using new and better tools.
gghhzzgghhzz 6y ago
Same here. 20 years on python and I've never done anything more than clone a repo, venv and pip install -r requirements. And then cd && python -m to run the source code, maybe set PYTHONPATH in some cases. I don't think I've even written a setup.py . Obviously there's a whole world of development and deployment where these things are relevant, but there's also a massive world where nobody even understands what they are missing.

smetj 6y ago

Agreed. I don't get the fuzz about pip/setuptools/virtualenv. I have shipped and deployed Python code countless times, never encountered an issue a `setup.py` couldn't solve.