8 ms·

Guido, IMHO the primary reason Python is great is because you have taste. Please insist on keeping that at MS...

by fghorow 6y ago

KingOfCoders 6y ago
Same for Clojure.
- Scarbutt 6y ago
  It's sad, dealing directly with extreme over-engineered enterprise Java libraries to compensate for Clojure's lack of ecosystem erodes all the attractiveness of the language for doing real-world or hobby applications. OTOH, there is no much benefit today in Clojure over other languages for database backed apps, most of what is considered good Clojure code is more about the methodology than the language per se. The real benefits IMO is when you paired it with Datomic avoiding the impedance mismatch in data structures, but Datomic is another can of worms.
URfejk 6y ago
MS is soon going to show him who the boss is ...
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  MS is soon going to show him who the boss is ... They let Anders Hejlsberg have free reign over his languages, encouraged it in fact.
  - URfejk 6y ago
    Well, time will tell ...
    - goatinaboat 6y ago
      Well, time will tell ... He joined them in 1996, and has done J++, C# and now TypeScript. They seem quite content for him to just keep making new languages which they throw all their marketing muscle behind.
      - phillipcarter 6y ago
        Someone on the internet: MS management will own him, like they do others, he hath been ingested into their belly Me, some rando MS employee who works on languages: yeah, I can actually do pretty much anything that I feel is right, at half the level of Guido (if even that) and a miniscule amount of clout
        msthrw2020 6y ago
        Chiming in as another rando MS employee who works on languages, while I think "ms will own him" is thoroughly overly dramatic, I made this account to express honest surprise that you feel like you have leeway with little clout. At least in my group our ability to do what we want was directly corresponding how connected/influential our sponsor was, and absent that, I have almost no ability to do what I feel is right, even if I have data backing it up, if the powers that be are in opposition. I don't want to paint this as some universal ms-doing-terrible-things statement, just that I don't personally feel like I have much freedom to assert philosophy or ideology, and I've seen well respected individuals in engineering even up to and above principal/partner die on comparatively minor hills before which makes me think it's not just me. And while I'm being dangerously candid, this to me seems like a prestige hire much like carmack at facebook, and I chuckle at the ado being given in both directions in this thread. I will be pleasantly surprised if this motivates more python support but expect neither good nor bad.
    - jodrellblank 6y ago
      It will? Then make a concrete prediction - what should we expect to see to confirm your claim? What will “Microsoft showing GvR who’s the boss” look like?
- meowface 6y ago
  Eh, I don't think so. If they ever do, he can just move on. I'm sure there's no shortage of big (or small) employers who would love to have him.
  - URfejk 6y ago
    Yes, but who can pay him as much as MS can?
    - entropicdrifter 6y ago
      Google uses a lot of Python and I'm sure they'd be happy to have him, for instance
      - snazz 6y ago
        He already worked at Google from 2005 to 2012, although they might be interested in having him back.
    - snazz 6y ago
      Any of the other FAANGs or unicorns. I doubt that the paycheck is his primary motivation, but I could be wrong.
    - jedberg 6y ago
      He worked at Google for seven years just after their IPO, and then Pre-IPO at Dropbox. It's unlikely that he's there for the paycheck.
bmitc 6y ago
Do people really consider Python to have taste? It basically ignored Scheme, ML, and Erlang dialects from its creation onwards.
- Scarbutt 6y ago
  I think it's all about the syntax and less about the semantics that still makes it a top 5 language. Makes you think about how important the syntax for a language is.
  - ehsankia 6y ago
    The fact that Python code is readable like pseudocode is most definitely why I like it best, over esoteric languages like Perl or Erlang with their non-intuitive use of various characters. To a seasoned programmer it may look obvious, but Python is still by far the best language for newcomers, and generally people tend to stick much longer to the language they were first taught.
    - bmitc 6y ago
      I am "seasoned", and I find Python not obvious at all. It's a confusing language with little gotchas everywhere. I find writing code in something like Racket or F# to be much easier and more consistent than Python.
- chippy 6y ago
  the user said the person who created Python had good taste, not that the language they created has it (somehow)
  - webmaven 6y ago
    > the user said the person who created Python had good taste, not that the language they created has it (somehow) I think that saying Guido has taste implies that Python is tasteful.
- munificent 6y ago

Guido, IMHO the primary reason Python is great is because you have taste. Please insist on keeping that at MS...

KingOfCoders 6y ago

Same for Clojure.

Scarbutt 6y ago
It's sad, dealing directly with extreme over-engineered enterprise Java libraries to compensate for Clojure's lack of ecosystem erodes all the attractiveness of the language for doing real-world or hobby applications. OTOH, there is no much benefit today in Clojure over other languages for database backed apps, most of what is considered good Clojure code is more about the methodology than the language per se. The real benefits IMO is when you paired it with Datomic avoiding the impedance mismatch in data structures, but Datomic is another can of worms.

URfejk 6y ago

MS is soon going to show him who the boss is ...

goatinaboat 6y ago
MS is soon going to show him who the boss is ... They let Anders Hejlsberg have free reign over his languages, encouraged it in fact.
- URfejk 6y ago
  Well, time will tell ...
  - goatinaboat 6y ago
    Well, time will tell ... He joined them in 1996, and has done J++, C# and now TypeScript. They seem quite content for him to just keep making new languages which they throw all their marketing muscle behind.
    - phillipcarter 6y ago
      Someone on the internet: MS management will own him, like they do others, he hath been ingested into their belly Me, some rando MS employee who works on languages: yeah, I can actually do pretty much anything that I feel is right, at half the level of Guido (if even that) and a miniscule amount of clout
      - msthrw2020 6y ago
        Chiming in as another rando MS employee who works on languages, while I think "ms will own him" is thoroughly overly dramatic, I made this account to express honest surprise that you feel like you have leeway with little clout. At least in my group our ability to do what we want was directly corresponding how connected/influential our sponsor was, and absent that, I have almost no ability to do what I feel is right, even if I have data backing it up, if the powers that be are in opposition. I don't want to paint this as some universal ms-doing-terrible-things statement, just that I don't personally feel like I have much freedom to assert philosophy or ideology, and I've seen well respected individuals in engineering even up to and above principal/partner die on comparatively minor hills before which makes me think it's not just me. And while I'm being dangerously candid, this to me seems like a prestige hire much like carmack at facebook, and I chuckle at the ado being given in both directions in this thread. I will be pleasantly surprised if this motivates more python support but expect neither good nor bad.
  - jodrellblank 6y ago
    It will? Then make a concrete prediction - what should we expect to see to confirm your claim? What will “Microsoft showing GvR who’s the boss” look like?
meowface 6y ago
Eh, I don't think so. If they ever do, he can just move on. I'm sure there's no shortage of big (or small) employers who would love to have him.
- URfejk 6y ago
  Yes, but who can pay him as much as MS can?
  - entropicdrifter 6y ago
    Google uses a lot of Python and I'm sure they'd be happy to have him, for instance
    - snazz 6y ago
      He already worked at Google from 2005 to 2012, although they might be interested in having him back.
  - snazz 6y ago
    Any of the other FAANGs or unicorns. I doubt that the paycheck is his primary motivation, but I could be wrong.
  - jedberg 6y ago
    He worked at Google for seven years just after their IPO, and then Pre-IPO at Dropbox. It's unlikely that he's there for the paycheck.

bmitc 6y ago

Do people really consider Python to have taste? It basically ignored Scheme, ML, and Erlang dialects from its creation onwards.

Scarbutt 6y ago
I think it's all about the syntax and less about the semantics that still makes it a top 5 language. Makes you think about how important the syntax for a language is.
- ehsankia 6y ago
  The fact that Python code is readable like pseudocode is most definitely why I like it best, over esoteric languages like Perl or Erlang with their non-intuitive use of various characters. To a seasoned programmer it may look obvious, but Python is still by far the best language for newcomers, and generally people tend to stick much longer to the language they were first taught.
  - bmitc 6y ago
    I am "seasoned", and I find Python not obvious at all. It's a confusing language with little gotchas everywhere. I find writing code in something like Racket or F# to be much easier and more consistent than Python.
chippy 6y ago
the user said the person who created Python had good taste, not that the language they created has it (somehow)
- webmaven 6y ago
  > the user said the person who created Python had good taste, not that the language they created has it (somehow) I think that saying Guido has taste implies that Python is tasteful.
munificent 6y ago