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> But Apple Silicon may actually improve the situation over time, as having the same GPUs and APIs on Macs and iOS devices means there is now a much bigger mark

> But Apple Silicon may actually improve the situation over time, as having the same GPUs and APIs on Macs and iOS devices means there is now a much bigger market for game developers to target with the same codebase. Not really. The business models for desktop gaming are completely different to mobile devices, and there is no meaningful common market. I think people will actually be surprised at how few games from iOS will even run on an ARM Mac because developers will block them. It used to be possible to do some gaming on a Mac - the vast, vast majority of Steam users have graphics hardware of a level that was perfectly achievable on a Mac, especially with an eGPU. The end of x86 is the end of that market, forever.

mthoms 6y ago
Why would developers "block" their iOS games from running on ARM Macs?
- Mindwipe 6y ago
  1) Macs are harder to consider secure, they're effectively all jailbroken. Cheating/bypassing in app purchases will be rampant, reducing the opportunity for cross play, and the Mac market isn't big enough itself. These aren't insurmountable issues, but they require investment, and the additional Mac market probably isn't worth the outlay and risk. 2) You have to rebuild the UI, which costs money which the Mac version may well not recoup. 3) You have a different version for desktops that costs more upfront with less reliance on in-app mechanics that you don't want to undermine.
  - Reason077 6y ago
    > "Macs are harder to consider secure, they're effectively all jailbroken." OK, but that's no different to Windows and Android. > "You have to rebuild the UI" No. Even with apps this is no longer the case (see: "Mac Catalyst"), but it's certainly not true for games. Maybe you'd need to add some keyboard/mouse bindings, but that's about it. Even iPads support keyboards and mice now days!
    - Hammershaft 6y ago
      So if an ios title uses a multi touch gesture how do you replicate that on MacOS?
      - mamon 6y ago
        You can do those multitouch gestures on TouchBar /s
      - jonnytran 6y ago
        Every MacBook has a multitouch trackpad. It's rare that I ever use a mouse.
        thirdsun 6y ago
        Still doesn't account for desktop devices. And no, it's not a given that every desktop mac user has a Magic Trackpad.
Reason077 6y ago
> "the vast, vast majority of Steam users have graphics hardware of a level that was perfectly achievable on a Mac" Exactly. So it was never really the hardware that held back gaming on Mac, but the fact that from a game-development perspective it's an esoteric platform that has limited or no support for the main industry standard APIs (DirectX, Vulkan, etc). It was never worth the effort for most game developers to bother porting games to the Mac because writing a custom port for Metal was way too expensive to justify for such a niche market. But now with Apple Silicon, that all changes. If you're going to port your game to iOS (and that's surely tempting - it's a huge platform/market with powerful GPUs and a "spendy" customer base) then you basically get Mac for free with close to zero additional effort.
- Mindwipe 6y ago
  > Exactly. So it was never really the hardware that held back gaming on Mac, but the fact that from a game-development perspective it's an esoteric platform that has limited or no support for the main industry standard APIs (DirectX, Vulkan, etc). I think it's more that gaming wasn't held back on the Mac. It was just bootcamp was much more common than people think. > If you're going to port your game to iOS (and why not? It's a huge platform with powerful GPUs and a huge, "spendy" market) Because mobile gaming and desktop gaming have very little in common. Note that Nintendo didn't port their titles when they released iOS games, they made new games. Users want different experiences, and flat ports of successful console gaming titles to iOS tend to fail. There are, all told, very few ports of successful PC/console games to iOS, and those that exist tend to be brand reuse rather than literal ports. > then you basically get Mac for free with close to zero additional effort. Not even remotely. The way you secure your service has to be totally different, the UI paradigm is completely different, you have to cope with totally different aspect ratios etc etc. It's significant effort, and it will be very hard to justify for most game studios. It's certainly more work in most cases than porting a Windows game to MacOS was when using a mainstream engine, and that was not a huge market.

mthoms 6y ago

Why would developers "block" their iOS games from running on ARM Macs?

Mindwipe 6y ago
1) Macs are harder to consider secure, they're effectively all jailbroken. Cheating/bypassing in app purchases will be rampant, reducing the opportunity for cross play, and the Mac market isn't big enough itself. These aren't insurmountable issues, but they require investment, and the additional Mac market probably isn't worth the outlay and risk. 2) You have to rebuild the UI, which costs money which the Mac version may well not recoup. 3) You have a different version for desktops that costs more upfront with less reliance on in-app mechanics that you don't want to undermine.
- Reason077 6y ago
  > "Macs are harder to consider secure, they're effectively all jailbroken." OK, but that's no different to Windows and Android. > "You have to rebuild the UI" No. Even with apps this is no longer the case (see: "Mac Catalyst"), but it's certainly not true for games. Maybe you'd need to add some keyboard/mouse bindings, but that's about it. Even iPads support keyboards and mice now days!
  - Hammershaft 6y ago
    So if an ios title uses a multi touch gesture how do you replicate that on MacOS?
    - mamon 6y ago
      You can do those multitouch gestures on TouchBar /s
    - jonnytran 6y ago
      Every MacBook has a multitouch trackpad. It's rare that I ever use a mouse.
      - thirdsun 6y ago
        Still doesn't account for desktop devices. And no, it's not a given that every desktop mac user has a Magic Trackpad.

Reason077 6y ago

> "the vast, vast majority of Steam users have graphics hardware of a level that was perfectly achievable on a Mac" Exactly. So it was never really the hardware that held back gaming on Mac, but the fact that from a game-development perspective it's an esoteric platform that has limited or no support for the main industry standard APIs (DirectX, Vulkan, etc). It was never worth the effort for most game developers to bother porting games to the Mac because writing a custom port for Metal was way too expensive to justify for such a niche market. But now with Apple Silicon, that all changes. If you're going to port your game to iOS (and that's surely tempting - it's a huge platform/market with powerful GPUs and a "spendy" customer base) then you basically get Mac for free with close to zero additional effort.

Mindwipe 6y ago
> Exactly. So it was never really the hardware that held back gaming on Mac, but the fact that from a game-development perspective it's an esoteric platform that has limited or no support for the main industry standard APIs (DirectX, Vulkan, etc). I think it's more that gaming wasn't held back on the Mac. It was just bootcamp was much more common than people think. > If you're going to port your game to iOS (and why not? It's a huge platform with powerful GPUs and a huge, "spendy" market) Because mobile gaming and desktop gaming have very little in common. Note that Nintendo didn't port their titles when they released iOS games, they made new games. Users want different experiences, and flat ports of successful console gaming titles to iOS tend to fail. There are, all told, very few ports of successful PC/console games to iOS, and those that exist tend to be brand reuse rather than literal ports. > then you basically get Mac for free with close to zero additional effort. Not even remotely. The way you secure your service has to be totally different, the UI paradigm is completely different, you have to cope with totally different aspect ratios etc etc. It's significant effort, and it will be very hard to justify for most game studios. It's certainly more work in most cases than porting a Windows game to MacOS was when using a mainstream engine, and that was not a huge market.