3 ms·

This is incorrect. The US even in the current time has one of the most open immigration systems in the world. Which is awful, but it is nonetheless true. Try to

by a2tech 6y ago

This is incorrect. The US even in the current time has one of the most open immigration systems in the world. Which is awful, but it is nonetheless true. Try to become a citizen in Europe without having a familial claim or a ton of money. You can absolutely get a work visa (if you can arrange a job) but the chances of you becoming a full citizen is about 0.

atemerev 6y ago
I moved to Switzerland from Russia, and currently live here in Geneva. I also lived in other European countries. No big deal, compared to the US (where I used to live for some time, too, but couldn't get a good path to immigrate without losing my independence as a consultant). In most European countries, you can get a citizenship in 5 years, less in some cases (if you are e.g. a student in France). Switzerland is an exception, it requires 10 years now.
- a2tech 6y ago
  Living in places is not what we're discussing. Immigration is becoming a citizen of another place. Americans can move almost anywhere. Becoming a CITIZEN is an entire different kettle of fish. I feel like this is where a lot of misunderstandings in these discussions come from--the difference between being a permanent alien and being a citizen. In the United States there's a process for people to become a full member of our society. There's also a process for being a working alien here. Two different paths that don't have to necessarily overlap.
  - atemerev 6y ago
    Becoming a citizen in most European countries is a matter of 5 years of living there. The process is straightforward. Here is an example for France: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law#French_citizenship_by_naturalization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law#French_...
  - eythian 6y ago
    In a number of places in Europe (I can't say how many, I've only researched the one I moved to, and know that some others are similar), you need to reside there lawfully for a number of years, in my case five, pass some basic tests of language and culture, and then you can apply for citizenship. That's really about all that's required. It's actually an almost identical process to becoming a permanent resident, which is what I'm aiming for due to no-dual-citizenship requirements.
eternauta3k 6y ago
Isn't h1b the main way into the US? Hardly sounds like "one of the most open in the world". I understand you can get a job in Germany with just an A1 german level certificate
guiraldelli 6y ago
For several, if not most, of the countries in European Union, you have to reside in the country five continuous years and speak the basics of the local, official language, in order to be apply for citizenship. Given the duration of a citizenship, it doesn't sound a bad requirement. Some countries, though, require you to have only one citizenship, which implies you will have to get rid of whatever citizenship you have. But that was not the point of your incorrect statement. Once thing that is common in Europe is citizenship by family, and I am not aware of a country (in Europe) that allows citizenship by being born in that place. In fact, I am just aware of United States and Brazil with the latter rule, but I never investigated it further.
- niij 6y ago
  Citizenship passed down via family: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis Citizenship based on where you're born: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli Jus Solid is more expansive than you think. It's most of the western hemisphere and in many European countries it is allowed if the parent(s) are in the country legally or are permanent residents.
- 627467 6y ago
  You're taking about nationality by _jus soli_ (by soil) vs _jus sangunis_ (by blood): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli Most of the New World is jus soli, while some European countries now accept jus soli under certain circumstances.
jamesrr39 6y ago
> Try to become a citizen in Europe without having a familial claim or a ton of money. You can absolutely get a work visa (if you can arrange a job) but the chances of you becoming a full citizen is about 0. What utter rubbish! For example, here in Sweden after 5 years of living here and nothing serious against you in your time here, you can apply for citizenship[1]. The application fee is 1500 SEK[2] (~175 USD today), hardly a "ton of money". 1: https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Becoming-a-Swedish-citizen/Citizenship-for-adults.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/... 2: https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Becoming-a-Swedish-citizen/Fees.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...
- intellirogue 6y ago
  Yep, significantly cheaper to become a citizen in most (if not all) EU countries than to renounce US citizenship.
- a2tech 6y ago
  You have to have a permanent resident permit and to have stayed for 5 years. Unfortunately I can't find anywhere on the Swedish immigration site (in English anyway) that lays out the requirements to receive said permit. The 'ton of money' comment were for people who wish to use pathways open to people who bring large investments into the country.
  - jamesrr39 6y ago
    Depends on the route you took (work permit/studying/joining a family member), but if you are on work permit (and are a non-EU citizen), you can get it after 4 years of being on a work permit. (These 4 years count as part of the 5 for citizenship, so it's 4 for permanent resident + 1 more.) https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Working-in-Sweden/Employed/If-you-are-in-Sweden/Extending-a-permit.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/... (Ctrl+f "Permanent residence permit")
bovermyer 6y ago
You can become a citizen of Estonia (and thus part of the EU system) after about 8 years of living there and passing an Estonian fluency exam. That's hardly "zero."
intellirogue 6y ago
Zero? Source for that? I'm living in Germany, with zero previous connection to the country. Been here a couple of years on a work permit, and in another couple of years I'll be able to apply for citizenship. That seems very very far from zero.
pedrosorio 6y ago
I just want to point out, for an HN thread with so few comments it is unusual to see the same person posting two distinct comments that completely contradict reality [1] Perhaps consider checking the facts before stating falsehoods? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25069948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25069948
dukeme09 6y ago
I live in Germany. It's also very straightforward here to become a citizen. You just need to live here legally for 8 years, learn German to B1 proficiency, take a test about how our government works and pay €255. One thing that's a big differentiator from the US system, is that the immigration system doesn't use lotteries or quotas. As long as you fulfill the requirements, as listed in the law, you get citizenship or the relevant residency permit.

by a2tech 6y ago

atemerev 6y ago

I moved to Switzerland from Russia, and currently live here in Geneva. I also lived in other European countries. No big deal, compared to the US (where I used to live for some time, too, but couldn't get a good path to immigrate without losing my independence as a consultant). In most European countries, you can get a citizenship in 5 years, less in some cases (if you are e.g. a student in France). Switzerland is an exception, it requires 10 years now.

a2tech 6y ago
Living in places is not what we're discussing. Immigration is becoming a citizen of another place. Americans can move almost anywhere. Becoming a CITIZEN is an entire different kettle of fish. I feel like this is where a lot of misunderstandings in these discussions come from--the difference between being a permanent alien and being a citizen. In the United States there's a process for people to become a full member of our society. There's also a process for being a working alien here. Two different paths that don't have to necessarily overlap.
- atemerev 6y ago
  Becoming a citizen in most European countries is a matter of 5 years of living there. The process is straightforward. Here is an example for France: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law#French_citizenship_by_naturalization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_nationality_law#French_...
- eythian 6y ago
  In a number of places in Europe (I can't say how many, I've only researched the one I moved to, and know that some others are similar), you need to reside there lawfully for a number of years, in my case five, pass some basic tests of language and culture, and then you can apply for citizenship. That's really about all that's required. It's actually an almost identical process to becoming a permanent resident, which is what I'm aiming for due to no-dual-citizenship requirements.

eternauta3k 6y ago

Isn't h1b the main way into the US? Hardly sounds like "one of the most open in the world". I understand you can get a job in Germany with just an A1 german level certificate

guiraldelli 6y ago

For several, if not most, of the countries in European Union, you have to reside in the country five continuous years and speak the basics of the local, official language, in order to be apply for citizenship. Given the duration of a citizenship, it doesn't sound a bad requirement. Some countries, though, require you to have only one citizenship, which implies you will have to get rid of whatever citizenship you have. But that was not the point of your incorrect statement. Once thing that is common in Europe is citizenship by family, and I am not aware of a country (in Europe) that allows citizenship by being born in that place. In fact, I am just aware of United States and Brazil with the latter rule, but I never investigated it further.

niij 6y ago
Citizenship passed down via family: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_sanguinis Citizenship based on where you're born: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli Jus Solid is more expansive than you think. It's most of the western hemisphere and in many European countries it is allowed if the parent(s) are in the country legally or are permanent residents.
627467 6y ago
You're taking about nationality by _jus soli_ (by soil) vs _jus sangunis_ (by blood): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli Most of the New World is jus soli, while some European countries now accept jus soli under certain circumstances.

jamesrr39 6y ago

> Try to become a citizen in Europe without having a familial claim or a ton of money. You can absolutely get a work visa (if you can arrange a job) but the chances of you becoming a full citizen is about 0. What utter rubbish! For example, here in Sweden after 5 years of living here and nothing serious against you in your time here, you can apply for citizenship[1]. The application fee is 1500 SEK[2] (~175 USD today), hardly a "ton of money". 1: https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Becoming-a-Swedish-citizen/Citizenship-for-adults.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/... 2: https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Becoming-a-Swedish-citizen/Fees.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/...

intellirogue 6y ago
Yep, significantly cheaper to become a citizen in most (if not all) EU countries than to renounce US citizenship.
a2tech 6y ago
You have to have a permanent resident permit and to have stayed for 5 years. Unfortunately I can't find anywhere on the Swedish immigration site (in English anyway) that lays out the requirements to receive said permit. The 'ton of money' comment were for people who wish to use pathways open to people who bring large investments into the country.
- jamesrr39 6y ago
  Depends on the route you took (work permit/studying/joining a family member), but if you are on work permit (and are a non-EU citizen), you can get it after 4 years of being on a work permit. (These 4 years count as part of the 5 for citizenship, so it's 4 for permanent resident + 1 more.) https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/Working-in-Sweden/Employed/If-you-are-in-Sweden/Extending-a-permit.html https://www.migrationsverket.se/English/Private-individuals/... (Ctrl+f "Permanent residence permit")

bovermyer 6y ago

You can become a citizen of Estonia (and thus part of the EU system) after about 8 years of living there and passing an Estonian fluency exam. That's hardly "zero."

intellirogue 6y ago

Zero? Source for that? I'm living in Germany, with zero previous connection to the country. Been here a couple of years on a work permit, and in another couple of years I'll be able to apply for citizenship. That seems very very far from zero.

pedrosorio 6y ago

I just want to point out, for an HN thread with so few comments it is unusual to see the same person posting two distinct comments that completely contradict reality [1] Perhaps consider checking the facts before stating falsehoods? [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25069948 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25069948

dukeme09 6y ago

I live in Germany. It's also very straightforward here to become a citizen. You just need to live here legally for 8 years, learn German to B1 proficiency, take a test about how our government works and pay €255. One thing that's a big differentiator from the US system, is that the immigration system doesn't use lotteries or quotas. As long as you fulfill the requirements, as listed in the law, you get citizenship or the relevant residency permit.