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I like the Brave New World approach to distopia. It's kind of hard to argue with the world as presented because the people in it are happy/content, it seems sus

I like the Brave New World approach to distopia. It's kind of hard to argue with the world as presented because the people in it are happy/content, it seems sustainable, safe, etc. Yet, as a present-day reader with a present-day moral lens, it seems horrific and unjust.

pmoriarty 6y ago
"Man does not desire happiness. Only the Englishman does." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
cryptica 6y ago
I'm starting to think that Brave New World is looking better than where we're actually headed. In BNW, the Alpha and Beta classes are chosen based on objectively desirable characteristics. Where we're heading, our top castes will comprise mostly of people who are manipulative, short-term thinkers, vengeful, insecure, arrogant and psychopathic. Not great for society.
- me_me_me 6y ago
  BNW world is designed to be pure meritocracy. It really does make you think about their world at the end. And its not really evil oppressive world like 1984. Its just purely mechanical construction that to us look like dystopia. I agree we are and are heading is technological aristocracy where tech is used to keep people in line. Divided over crazy theories, societal issues and squabbling over leftovers. Just give them youtube and they come up with the 'hidden truths' and then they fight with secret kabals and 'morons' who don't see the signs. Meanwhile amazons googles and other industries are literally squeezing all small business out of existence. Do you think an Amazon Town could be created where all you shopping has to be done via amazon but you get 20 or 50% off. How far are we from that reality? What I would disagree with is that the people who push this system forward are far from short-term thinkers, vengeful, insecure. They schemed this system up long time ago and look for every angle to push it ahead. How quickly 9/11 from tragedy was turned into patriot act opportunity?
  - TT3351 6y ago
    Meritocracy set out from birth, no? Are not all people in that book test tube children with specific selected genomes? I fail to see how creating a class of genetic garbage men, relegated to working with trash for their entire lives is "meritocratic," since advocates of the meritocracy concept generally rely on the system's alleged mobility.
    - ForHackernews 6y ago
      Reminder that "meritocracy" came to prominence in a satirical essay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy Unfortunately a bunch of folks read that and thought it was a great idea.
      - throwaway2048 6y ago
        Pretty sure people see the first 5 letters, and then decide since they've earned everything in life, its a great idea.
      - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
        From what I recall from reading it, the meritocracy part actually worked incredibly well, yielding tremendous technological advances. It was the secondary effects of pushing meritocracy to extremes that were the problem.
      - Nasrudith 6y ago
        Well of course - his underlying thesis was weak and failed to show how it would be worse off than the status quo. No wonder it caught on when what was mocked is a better idea than the current system! The downsides again failed to be worse than a fixed caste system and relied upon bad extrapolations.
      - jhbadger 6y ago
        But it would be a great idea if it were real. The problem isn't in the theoretical idea of a meritocracy. It's that the real world isn't nearly as meritocratic as assumed and a lot of people in high places got there by connections, being from wealthy families, and so on and not due to their own merits.

pmoriarty 6y ago

"Man does not desire happiness. Only the Englishman does." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

cryptica 6y ago

I'm starting to think that Brave New World is looking better than where we're actually headed. In BNW, the Alpha and Beta classes are chosen based on objectively desirable characteristics. Where we're heading, our top castes will comprise mostly of people who are manipulative, short-term thinkers, vengeful, insecure, arrogant and psychopathic. Not great for society.

me_me_me 6y ago
BNW world is designed to be pure meritocracy. It really does make you think about their world at the end. And its not really evil oppressive world like 1984. Its just purely mechanical construction that to us look like dystopia. I agree we are and are heading is technological aristocracy where tech is used to keep people in line. Divided over crazy theories, societal issues and squabbling over leftovers. Just give them youtube and they come up with the 'hidden truths' and then they fight with secret kabals and 'morons' who don't see the signs. Meanwhile amazons googles and other industries are literally squeezing all small business out of existence. Do you think an Amazon Town could be created where all you shopping has to be done via amazon but you get 20 or 50% off. How far are we from that reality? What I would disagree with is that the people who push this system forward are far from short-term thinkers, vengeful, insecure. They schemed this system up long time ago and look for every angle to push it ahead. How quickly 9/11 from tragedy was turned into patriot act opportunity?
- TT3351 6y ago
  Meritocracy set out from birth, no? Are not all people in that book test tube children with specific selected genomes? I fail to see how creating a class of genetic garbage men, relegated to working with trash for their entire lives is "meritocratic," since advocates of the meritocracy concept generally rely on the system's alleged mobility.
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    Reminder that "meritocracy" came to prominence in a satirical essay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_of_the_Meritocracy Unfortunately a bunch of folks read that and thought it was a great idea.
    - throwaway2048 6y ago
      Pretty sure people see the first 5 letters, and then decide since they've earned everything in life, its a great idea.
    - ThrowawayR2 6y ago
      From what I recall from reading it, the meritocracy part actually worked incredibly well, yielding tremendous technological advances. It was the secondary effects of pushing meritocracy to extremes that were the problem.
    - Nasrudith 6y ago
      Well of course - his underlying thesis was weak and failed to show how it would be worse off than the status quo. No wonder it caught on when what was mocked is a better idea than the current system! The downsides again failed to be worse than a fixed caste system and relied upon bad extrapolations.
    - jhbadger 6y ago
      But it would be a great idea if it were real. The problem isn't in the theoretical idea of a meritocracy. It's that the real world isn't nearly as meritocratic as assumed and a lot of people in high places got there by connections, being from wealthy families, and so on and not due to their own merits.