5 ms·

This reads like a description of a pretty awful dystopia. Or at least one where everything might seem great, until it isn't. And when it turns, turning it back

by LandR 6y ago

This reads like a description of a pretty awful dystopia. Or at least one where everything might seem great, until it isn't. And when it turns, turning it back is HARD / near impossible. Do people read this and think that is the sort of life they would want in the future?

jstummbillig 6y ago
Parts of it, for sure! (I find it hard to imagine you would read a text of any notable length and not agree with any of its ideas to some degree.) Something that rings very true for me: Sharing is amazingly underutilized (unfortunately I feel it's a deeply cultural problem right now, but oh well, over time things change): I have absolutely no inherent need to own a car. I don't need to own a Hammer. I don't need to own a bicycle pump. Actually, it's intensely inefficient how many things I do have to own and store right now, to be able to only use 5 Minutes every other week or maybe even only half a year. What I instead need is convenient access to these things. If you can show me a model where I can have that without the burden and cost of solo-owning it – something the author is implying will be a solved problem – I am all for that.
- justinclift 6y ago
  For the Hammer, Bicycle Pump, and other "Tool" type of things the "Tool Library" concept seems to work really well. It's like a "Book Library", (eg centralised local place for storage and co-ordination) but for tools. There's one here in Melbourne (Australia) with about 400 members, and over 1000 tools: * https://www.brunswicktoollibrary.org https://www.brunswicktoollibrary.org * https://brunswicktoollibrary.myturn.com/library/inventory/browse https://brunswicktoollibrary.myturn.com/library/inventory/br... They have power tools (~200), hand tools (~600), garden tools (~200), automotive stuff, electrical/soldering gear, etc. And they have occasional um... workshops (or something similar) teaching people how to repair things. eg: * Bike repair (Sep 2020) - https://www.facebook.com/events/728114278044351/ https://www.facebook.com/events/728114278044351/ * General repair (Feb 2020) https://www.facebook.com/events/613979845834779/ https://www.facebook.com/events/613979845834779/ Seems to work really well, at least in this case. :)
  - slx26 6y ago
    Very nice, hope projects like these become common public services in the future.
- slx26 6y ago
  Agreed, though I think last mile delivery is ignored in the essay. I'd be very happy if post offices evolved and became places where you could get things delivered and you could retrieve them without needing to wait or speak with anyone, but they also allowed you to retrieve other shared items (ok, maybe some requiring a reserve first) that I'm not going to need often. Tools are a good example. Some cooking appliances would also qualify. Some equipment for hiking, board games, bikes and other small vehicles, instruments, etc. The lack of environmental problems and abundance of clean energy also sounds good, though it just appears magically in the essay, so we can't say much about it. Lack of privacy is terrible, and we can make it much better. Flying cars are terrible. Not owning everything is terrible. I'm the complete opposite of a materialist person, but I can understand how it's very useful to own some things. I mean, besides your underwear. Some might have sentimental value, and others are used so much that it's more practical to own them and know they are always available at the place you left them.
at_a_remove 6y ago
My going rule of thumb is that any "good" fictive dystopia always starts off as being someone else's utopia, only it becomes compulsory. This in turn leads to any deficiencies or problems in the utopia needing to be papered over, ignored, and so forth because it is compulsory. This causes yet more distortions and away we go. It's like all of those breathless journo articles about insect protein: they sound fine until the word "replace" comes in. Maybe some folks are jazzed about eating bugs, but I am not, and would prefer not to have my meat replaced by insect protein to keep someone else's utopia going, but someone is going to have the bright idea to make the choice for me.
- ragnese 6y ago
  I like the Brave New World approach to distopia. It's kind of hard to argue with the world as presented because the people in it are happy/content, it seems sustainable, safe, etc. Yet, as a present-day reader with a present-day moral lens, it seems horrific and unjust.
  - pmoriarty 6y ago
    "Man does not desire happiness. Only the Englishman does." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
  - cryptica 6y ago
    I'm starting to think that Brave New World is looking better than where we're actually headed. In BNW, the Alpha and Beta classes are chosen based on objectively desirable characteristics. Where we're heading, our top castes will comprise mostly of people who are manipulative, short-term thinkers, vengeful, insecure, arrogant and psychopathic. Not great for society.
    - me_me_me 6y ago
      BNW world is designed to be pure meritocracy. It really does make you think about their world at the end. And its not really evil oppressive world like 1984. Its just purely mechanical construction that to us look like dystopia. I agree we are and are heading is technological aristocracy where tech is used to keep people in line. Divided over crazy theories, societal issues and squabbling over leftovers. Just give them youtube and they come up with the 'hidden truths' and then they fight with secret kabals and 'morons' who don't see the signs. Meanwhile amazons googles and other industries are literally squeezing all small business out of existence. Do you think an Amazon Town could be created where all you shopping has to be done via amazon but you get 20 or 50% off. How far are we from that reality? What I would disagree with is that the people who push this system forward are far from short-term thinkers, vengeful, insecure. They schemed this system up long time ago and look for every angle to push it ahead. How quickly 9/11 from tragedy was turned into patriot act opportunity?
globular-toast 6y ago
That might be because you are used to the common trope of the future that seems too good to be true and turns out to have sinister underpinnings. It's used in a lot of dystopian fiction.
cryptica 6y ago
Of course it's a scam. "You will own nothing and be happy". That is BS of the highest order. There will always be someone who owns and controls everything. It's just not going to be you. You will own nothing, you will be worthless. You won't even be able to have a girlfriend/boyfriend or friends for that matter; real human relationships are reserved for the elites. You will get as many VR friends as you want though. Already it's kind of happening. Look at how many friends rich people have; a lot. Look at how many friends poor people have; very few. Of course, they're not real friends, but still more real than light projected into your eyeballs.
- cryptica 6y ago
  I can't believe that people are downvoting this without making any arguments to refute it; they're thinking emotionally, looking at things through rose-colored lenses. Sometimes it seems like everyone is on drugs. People's brains are turning into swiss cheese. Trying to censor information is just not going to work. Controlling the media is not going to help beyond a certain point. People know what's going on and they'll be taking the real conversations offline. When everyone collectively realizes what's been happening, the backlash is going to be terrifying and unforgiving. The more you suppress the truth, the worse it will be when it all comes out. The current elites don't have the ability to suppress billions of people who were raised on freedom as the central principle of their existence.
  - justinclift 6y ago
    > The current elites don't have the ability to suppress billions of people who were raised on freedom as the central principle of their existence. That sounds like a problem that could be solved through military automation. (!)
  - test1_1234 6y ago
    >The current elites don't have the ability to suppress billions of people who were raised on freedom as the central principle of their existence. I hope I'm not too cynical, but I think "freedom" is more of a meme than something that most people value. Whenever there are news stories about governments spying on their own citizens or restricting free speech, most people seem to just shrug and move on with their lives.
ZephyrBlu 6y ago
> Do people read this and think that is the sort of life they would want in the future? Mostly, yes. Most items people own seem like clutter to me. I would much rather own the absolute minimum and then get anything else as I need it, rather than have to own a lot of stuff. More stuff = more problems.
roenxi 6y ago
> Do people read this and think that is the sort of life they would want in the future? I think the author purposefully avoided saying anyone that. But the part of the story that stood out to me viscerally was the neglect of maintenance crews and the design work, etc and how that plays into a status hierarchy. It is the same frustrating arrogance I sometimes see in city dwellers who just don't understand how many people are physically labouring to to maintain the artificial environment of a large city. A handwave and "robots will do all that stuff by 2030" is too fantastic to stomach.
Cthulhu_ 6y ago
I've read Brave New World the other day that sort of envisions this kind of utopia (although there's serious eugenics going on as well), where people "work" for a couple hours a day and spend most their time er, frolicking. I don't recall it being portrayed as a bad thing, other than a disdain of 'older' media like books and the like.
awb 6y ago
> Author's note: Some people have read this blog as my utopia or dream of the future. It is not. It is a scenario showing where we could be heading - for better and for worse. I wrote this piece to start a discussion about some of the pros and cons of the current technological development. When we are dealing with the future, it is not enough to work with reports. We should start discussions in many new ways. This is the intention with this piece.

by LandR 6y ago

jstummbillig 6y ago

Parts of it, for sure! (I find it hard to imagine you would read a text of any notable length and not agree with any of its ideas to some degree.) Something that rings very true for me: Sharing is amazingly underutilized (unfortunately I feel it's a deeply cultural problem right now, but oh well, over time things change): I have absolutely no inherent need to own a car. I don't need to own a Hammer. I don't need to own a bicycle pump. Actually, it's intensely inefficient how many things I do have to own and store right now, to be able to only use 5 Minutes every other week or maybe even only half a year. What I instead need is convenient access to these things. If you can show me a model where I can have that without the burden and cost of solo-owning it – something the author is implying will be a solved problem – I am all for that.

justinclift 6y ago
For the Hammer, Bicycle Pump, and other "Tool" type of things the "Tool Library" concept seems to work really well. It's like a "Book Library", (eg centralised local place for storage and co-ordination) but for tools. There's one here in Melbourne (Australia) with about 400 members, and over 1000 tools: * https://www.brunswicktoollibrary.org https://www.brunswicktoollibrary.org * https://brunswicktoollibrary.myturn.com/library/inventory/browse https://brunswicktoollibrary.myturn.com/library/inventory/br... They have power tools (~200), hand tools (~600), garden tools (~200), automotive stuff, electrical/soldering gear, etc. And they have occasional um... workshops (or something similar) teaching people how to repair things. eg: * Bike repair (Sep 2020) - https://www.facebook.com/events/728114278044351/ https://www.facebook.com/events/728114278044351/ * General repair (Feb 2020) https://www.facebook.com/events/613979845834779/ https://www.facebook.com/events/613979845834779/ Seems to work really well, at least in this case. :)
- slx26 6y ago
  Very nice, hope projects like these become common public services in the future.
slx26 6y ago
Agreed, though I think last mile delivery is ignored in the essay. I'd be very happy if post offices evolved and became places where you could get things delivered and you could retrieve them without needing to wait or speak with anyone, but they also allowed you to retrieve other shared items (ok, maybe some requiring a reserve first) that I'm not going to need often. Tools are a good example. Some cooking appliances would also qualify. Some equipment for hiking, board games, bikes and other small vehicles, instruments, etc. The lack of environmental problems and abundance of clean energy also sounds good, though it just appears magically in the essay, so we can't say much about it. Lack of privacy is terrible, and we can make it much better. Flying cars are terrible. Not owning everything is terrible. I'm the complete opposite of a materialist person, but I can understand how it's very useful to own some things. I mean, besides your underwear. Some might have sentimental value, and others are used so much that it's more practical to own them and know they are always available at the place you left them.

at_a_remove 6y ago

My going rule of thumb is that any "good" fictive dystopia always starts off as being someone else's utopia, only it becomes compulsory. This in turn leads to any deficiencies or problems in the utopia needing to be papered over, ignored, and so forth because it is compulsory. This causes yet more distortions and away we go. It's like all of those breathless journo articles about insect protein: they sound fine until the word "replace" comes in. Maybe some folks are jazzed about eating bugs, but I am not, and would prefer not to have my meat replaced by insect protein to keep someone else's utopia going, but someone is going to have the bright idea to make the choice for me.

ragnese 6y ago
I like the Brave New World approach to distopia. It's kind of hard to argue with the world as presented because the people in it are happy/content, it seems sustainable, safe, etc. Yet, as a present-day reader with a present-day moral lens, it seems horrific and unjust.
- pmoriarty 6y ago
  "Man does not desire happiness. Only the Englishman does." -- Friedrich Nietzsche
- cryptica 6y ago
  I'm starting to think that Brave New World is looking better than where we're actually headed. In BNW, the Alpha and Beta classes are chosen based on objectively desirable characteristics. Where we're heading, our top castes will comprise mostly of people who are manipulative, short-term thinkers, vengeful, insecure, arrogant and psychopathic. Not great for society.
  - me_me_me 6y ago
    BNW world is designed to be pure meritocracy. It really does make you think about their world at the end. And its not really evil oppressive world like 1984. Its just purely mechanical construction that to us look like dystopia. I agree we are and are heading is technological aristocracy where tech is used to keep people in line. Divided over crazy theories, societal issues and squabbling over leftovers. Just give them youtube and they come up with the 'hidden truths' and then they fight with secret kabals and 'morons' who don't see the signs. Meanwhile amazons googles and other industries are literally squeezing all small business out of existence. Do you think an Amazon Town could be created where all you shopping has to be done via amazon but you get 20 or 50% off. How far are we from that reality? What I would disagree with is that the people who push this system forward are far from short-term thinkers, vengeful, insecure. They schemed this system up long time ago and look for every angle to push it ahead. How quickly 9/11 from tragedy was turned into patriot act opportunity?

globular-toast 6y ago

That might be because you are used to the common trope of the future that seems too good to be true and turns out to have sinister underpinnings. It's used in a lot of dystopian fiction.

cryptica 6y ago

Of course it's a scam. "You will own nothing and be happy". That is BS of the highest order. There will always be someone who owns and controls everything. It's just not going to be you. You will own nothing, you will be worthless. You won't even be able to have a girlfriend/boyfriend or friends for that matter; real human relationships are reserved for the elites. You will get as many VR friends as you want though. Already it's kind of happening. Look at how many friends rich people have; a lot. Look at how many friends poor people have; very few. Of course, they're not real friends, but still more real than light projected into your eyeballs.

cryptica 6y ago
I can't believe that people are downvoting this without making any arguments to refute it; they're thinking emotionally, looking at things through rose-colored lenses. Sometimes it seems like everyone is on drugs. People's brains are turning into swiss cheese. Trying to censor information is just not going to work. Controlling the media is not going to help beyond a certain point. People know what's going on and they'll be taking the real conversations offline. When everyone collectively realizes what's been happening, the backlash is going to be terrifying and unforgiving. The more you suppress the truth, the worse it will be when it all comes out. The current elites don't have the ability to suppress billions of people who were raised on freedom as the central principle of their existence.
- justinclift 6y ago
  > The current elites don't have the ability to suppress billions of people who were raised on freedom as the central principle of their existence. That sounds like a problem that could be solved through military automation. (!)
- test1_1234 6y ago
  >The current elites don't have the ability to suppress billions of people who were raised on freedom as the central principle of their existence. I hope I'm not too cynical, but I think "freedom" is more of a meme than something that most people value. Whenever there are news stories about governments spying on their own citizens or restricting free speech, most people seem to just shrug and move on with their lives.

ZephyrBlu 6y ago

> Do people read this and think that is the sort of life they would want in the future? Mostly, yes. Most items people own seem like clutter to me. I would much rather own the absolute minimum and then get anything else as I need it, rather than have to own a lot of stuff. More stuff = more problems.

roenxi 6y ago

> Do people read this and think that is the sort of life they would want in the future? I think the author purposefully avoided saying anyone that. But the part of the story that stood out to me viscerally was the neglect of maintenance crews and the design work, etc and how that plays into a status hierarchy. It is the same frustrating arrogance I sometimes see in city dwellers who just don't understand how many people are physically labouring to to maintain the artificial environment of a large city. A handwave and "robots will do all that stuff by 2030" is too fantastic to stomach.

Cthulhu_ 6y ago

I've read Brave New World the other day that sort of envisions this kind of utopia (although there's serious eugenics going on as well), where people "work" for a couple hours a day and spend most their time er, frolicking. I don't recall it being portrayed as a bad thing, other than a disdain of 'older' media like books and the like.

awb 6y ago

> Author's note: Some people have read this blog as my utopia or dream of the future. It is not. It is a scenario showing where we could be heading - for better and for worse. I wrote this piece to start a discussion about some of the pros and cons of the current technological development. When we are dealing with the future, it is not enough to work with reports. We should start discussions in many new ways. This is the intention with this piece.