9 ms·

Startups Are Hard

410 points by tlb 16y ago

sabat 16y ago
This post is one long moan. Of course startups are hard. So is marriage, and so is jogging. So if you're doing it, you'd better love it, because if you don't, you're going to be miserable. You do it because you love building things and love to learn things -- and you can handle failure, whether it's temporary or permanent. You can recognize that you have not actually failed if you've learned in the process, made personal connections, etc. People doing startups need encouragement. They may need to be warned that this isn't easy, but they really don't need moans.
- jazzychad 16y ago
  My apologies if it seemed like a giant moan. I was just trying to give a slice of reality about our personal experiences. Startups and the Silicon Valley Life are made to look pretty glamorous, and I wanted to offer another viewpoint. I went into this whole thing being pretty naive about a lot of the process, so I wanted to relate some of the things I've learned along the way. I'm not looking for pity.
  - dools 16y ago
    Although you haven't cracked the big time yet, this still all sounds pretty bloody glamorous to me!
  - sabat 16y ago
    And, FWIW, I am not saying you have no reason to complain. But keep your chin up. If this one doesn't work out, you've learned a ton, and the next one will be better.
- jng 16y ago
  People thinking about doing startups do need views from different perspectives. The article is exactly that. It's not a moan, it's a pragmatic view from someone who drank the koolaid and is now seeing the reality, and shares it. It's probably something he himself would have wanted to read 2 years ago to have a more balanced view (even if he would probably have done it anyway!). Yes, the article is not too positive, because the author is not at a great point. But it's far from a moan. Also, some people doing startups do need encouragement, but some others need to be told that what they are doing is not valuable and they had better change course or go back home.
- freshfunk 16y ago
  Let me guess: You've never been a real entrepreneur. :]
pclark 16y ago
so wait, is notifo.com going through yc again? (I only ask, because if not, and notifo is dead, that sucks)
- jazzychad 16y ago
  Notifo is not dead, but the future is not certain (just as for any startup). We are going through YC again in order to figure things out and really figure out our direction for the future.
  - pclark 16y ago
    Are you going in with that product?
    - jazzychad 16y ago
      We are going in as founders with ideas. Some info we can't reveal just yet, so I'll have to leave it at that.
      - nhangen 16y ago
        Well heck, getting into YC is a feat unto itself. Considering all of the others that can't even get that far, at least you have a glimmer of hope. Edit: I'm curious - why the downvote?
        dwynings 16y ago
        I didn't downvote you, but if I had to guess, it'd be because people perceived "at least you have a glimmer of hope" as downplaying or minimizing their struggle.
        nhangen 16y ago
        Not at all. As someone going through very similar struggles, I can relate 100%.
a5seo 16y ago
Anyone thinking about moving to SF to launch a startup needs to read the Sacrifies and Startup Depression section 10x, assume it will be worse for you, and then decide. And doubly so if you're married. If your spouse isn't on board and you've minimized the challenge, you're screwed.
- Cherian_Abraham 16y ago
  We cannot afford to drop everthing and move to SF. And considering where we are (Richmond in Virginia) and our roots here, we feel like we owe this town. There are a lot of things we are surely missing out by not moving to the Valley, which is the startup ecosystem, the investors, the talent etc. But startups also have to deal with the noise, the saturation, and the "meh" when you launch. Where as in Richmond, we can possibly have a far bigger impact, with a lot more people who will love us, and we are right next to DC. I am sure we will not know if we made the right choice, for a long time. But I dont buy in to the belief that unless you are in the Valley, no one will give a damn (as touted by Vivek Wadhwa a few weeks ago). Any thoughts? EDIT: Needed to add a couple more thoughts that came out of the responses my post received. a) Its really hard to find talent in SF - Right now, we are one non-tech founder and two hackers. And finding android or iOS talent in Richmond is like looking for needles. But I believe that if you find a darn good hacker, then a new tool or language is just a speedbump. We are still trying to find a very good UX designer though. b) I agree with the Valley vibe. But it sounds more of a Goldrush than anything else. And I also agree with the vibrant support system that the Valley can provide. Right now, I get that through HN, blogs and my peers over email and phone.
  - sawyer 16y ago
    Completely agree. I am in the same boat as a Canadian not wanting to move to the states. While it may be true that many investors will rule you out based on location; my firm belief is that first time entrepreneurs should spend their time acquiring customers, not investors. Customers generally don't mind if you're not in the valley (although it is true that if your product is built for tech oriented people the bay area may be a high customer saturation zone.)
trickjarrett 16y ago
Kudos to you for saying and admitting the hard things for the startup entrepreneur. Failing sucks. Struggling to not fail sucks even more because it can just drain you. Best of luck :)
lsiu 16y ago
Good read. I hope you make it someday!
stevelaz 16y ago
Great read! It's great to hear some of the brutal truth about attempting to do what we all love to dream about but mostly FAIL at.
stevenj 16y ago
I think that the "making something people want" at the right time is the hardest part, and maybe distribution as well. Execution is important. But I think many people have the skills to create what ends up being successful. Take Groupon for example. It made something a lot of people wanted. Could most people on Hacker News have made it? Sure. But Groupon created it before anyone else (I might be wrong about this?). Another example is HN. Pg has said that what he thinks users want most are quality articles and discussion. While it's "just a forum", I think Pg is right for not adding a lot of features, or spending the limited time he has working on the UI, and instead focusing on how people can discover quality articles and make/read quality comments. "Make something people want." It's simple, but it sure isn't easy.
- jeromec 16y ago
  I think Pg is right for not adding a lot of features, or spending the limited time he has working on the UI I believe HN's plain design is actually an intended feature, not a bug. From one of PG's essays: So the most important thing a community site can do is attract the kind of people it wants. A site trying to be as big as possible wants to attract everyone. But a site aiming at a particular subset of users has to attract just those—and just as importantly, repel everyone else. I've made a conscious effort to do this on HN. The graphic design is as plain as possible, and the site rules discourage dramatic link titles. http://paulgraham.com/hackernews.html http://paulgraham.com/hackernews.html
  - stevenj 16y ago
    >I believe HN's plain design is actually an intended feature, not a bug. I agree. Though I've read several comments that suggest adding to it, and in general, I think doing that would make it less useful.
- patio11 16y ago
  Take Groupon for example. It made something a lot of people wanted. Could most people on Hacker News have made it? Sure. But Groupon created it before anyone else (I might be wrong about this?). Group buying has been done many, many times before, going back to the bubble. Many millions of dollars were burned to little avail. What Groupon actually nailed was all the hard parts of the business model that don't look really freaking difficult on the napkin -- particularly "signing up local merchants" and "cost-effective customer acquisition." That second one is relevant for virtually all businesses and gets disproportionately short shrift here.
sawyer 16y ago
It's anecdotes like these that reinforce my belief that for a bootstrapping pre-success founder it's easier to focus on revenue rather than investment. The growth curve might be slower, but the friction you face as a first time entrepreneur trying to raise money is deadly.
prpon 16y ago
Chad, Couldn't have said any better about startups being hard. I wish you and Paul success. You have so many things that are going right for you. Access to great mentors, being part of YC, being in the valley and having a supporting family. You just need that missing piece for which people would really pay. As a nobody, you have not much to lose. We will be here to cheer you on when you find that missing link.
bluekite2000 16y ago
You are still in a better situation than many here. SF's coffee shops are littered w/ debt-laden (pseudo)-hackers who have half-baked ideas/projects, no gf's (or wives), zero connection to anyone of value and sleeping on a sofa of some friend's musty apartment.
- PStamatiou 16y ago
  Haha I get lots of my work done at coffee shops. :)
ZackOfAllTrades 16y ago
"The less you need money, the more people want to give it to you." - some advice I have heard about finances. Applies to businesses selling a product, startups looking for money, and, especially well, to scholarships. The best indication that people should invest in you is that you don't need them to invest in you at all.
dabent 16y ago
Someone offered me a job recently. One of the people who interviewed me knew I had a side project that could become a startup. His advice was exactly what jazzychad said: startups are hard. He had been in one, so his advice meant something. I turned down the offer, but for reasons unrelated to my side project. Still I feel like my project/startup is floating in the Sargasso Sea. If you think getting funding in the Bay Area is hard, move to Atlanta. There's a reason Stammy is out there. And you can't be too much of a Nobody if you can get into YC twice. I wish team Notifo (or whatever your next project is) all the best.
- jazzychad 16y ago
  I think there are different degrees of Nobodiness and Somebodiness, but I also think there is a pretty big gap between the highest Nobody, and the lowest Somebody. Maybe I am moving up the Nobody scale :) I don't want to belabor the point or make it seem like I am self-deprecating, but you get the point.
  - dabent 16y ago
    > I think there are different degrees of Nobodiness and Somebodiness Indeed. You now at least you know a Somebody or two. Many folks don't get that far. A misquote from the article (my perspective): > Am I jealous of other companies' success? I would be lying if I said no. I am slightly jealous when I wake up and read another story about some company getting into YC when I didn't even get an interview. I'd also be lying if I wasn't genuinely happy for every company that gets any sort of success, because I'm now getting a taste for how hard it really is.
  - webwright 16y ago
    I think the nobody/somebody line is oftentimes: "were you a part of a team/company that made money for investors". If you are, it seems like funding often falls like rain-- people think whatever alchemy that company had might have rubbed off on you. Brilliant post, Chad. Many thanks.
Maro 16y ago
Great post. I've also had "Startup depression" where I didn't sleep for 1 week and was totally unproductive for a grand total of 2-3 weeks. Ever since then I stopped recommending doing startups to my friends. We've also experienced the "You're Nobody until you're Somebody problem." The work-around we're trying right now is to bring a (non-technical) "Somebody" onboard as a partner/founder, who is also, unlike us, located in the US where our market is. Location has also come up in this thread. Early on I thought that thanks to the Internet location matters "less". Not true. You have to be where your investors/customers are. Deals require massive face time.
JoeAltmaier 16y ago
So startups the YC way are hard. The sacrifice is self-inflicted, and avoidable - just give up more of your company up front, or choose a more visible partner, or have a spouse that has a real income to start with, or work at BigCo then quit and create something they need and lease/contract it back to them, etc. Its winning the lottery that is hard, and only because you make it hard on yourself for that big prize.
- jazzychad 16y ago
  No pain, no gain.
noelsequeira 16y ago
While the entire post is both cathartic and poignant, one line stood out for me because of its brutal honesty. Am I jealous of other companies' success? I would be lying if I said no. Thank you for saying this. I've always wanted to, but feared I'd be called out for it. In public. In fact, I think it's part of what keeps the fire burning inside - that constant hunger to try and figure out why some folks are plain better / more successful at the game, and then trying and internalizing / applying those lessons. And it can get frustrating when you can't replicate / emulate what others have achieved seemingly easily. As a corollary, this is probably why Jack Dorsey and Dennis Crowley are enigmas unto themselves. An important aside: Chad, I'm someone who has tracked (and may I add envied) the Notifo story. And I admire the work you've done, from fanout.js, to snagging Paul for a co-founder, to HN for Android, to PicAFight, to GramFrame, to Vorepad........I've found myself in awe of how prolific you've been (and you don't even know me). It's possible you've been doing one thing too many (because you love APIs and can't keep from tinkering with them). What I'm convinced of, is that you have the talent, the work ethic and an incredible co-founder. All the best, I'm hoping I have to transition back into pure envy real soon.
- jazzychad 16y ago
  Thank you for this. I was doing all that "one thing too many" stuff during the "crap, what are we gonna do now" phase where we weren't super productive and just played around with prototyping some ideas. Not shipping anything made me feel terrible, so we spent some time making random side-projects to stay sharp. All of them were good learning exercises, too. I made sure that each project had some part of it that I didn't know how to do, so it would force me to learn new things.
  - auston 16y ago
    I never understood why you didn't charge for Notifo? I would have paid something for it.
    - kwis 16y ago
      The #1 reason I ignored notifo is I couldn't understand the business model. As such, for our internal systems, we notify via SMS, email and jabber. Things that I know will still be around in a year.
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ChuckMcM 16y ago
Nicely done. I especially liked "We let them [the investors] dictate our path with their negative signaling instead of listening to our guts." This trap is something that is so easy to fall into and so painful to pull out of. My first startup had a 'star' VC fronting it, he loved the concept but didn't really understand that his vision was often in conflict with the founder's vision. That really hurt as the company was ripped too and fro trying to achieve a couple of really orthogonal goals. Tom Lyon once told me that really it takes three startups before you 'get it'. One which is a somplete disaster, it helps you see what you did wrong and what can go wrong. One which isn't a complete disaster but exits sideways, which is to say you work at it day and night but when it exits you find yourself exactly where you were when you started. Then the third one where you know what to expect, you have a solid idea of what not to do and you keep laser focused on getting in, getting done, and getting it shipped. It is very hard though, always.
jkaljundi 16y ago
"if you are having trouble putting together a round in the first few weeks of actual investor meetings, just say, "screw it," and get back to working ASAP." - this seems a little extreme, to say the least, not sure I agree. It might apply to some premium selected YC startups in frothy Silicon Valley conditions, but not in general. Putting together a round takes time and quite often much much more than a few weeks.
- jazzychad 16y ago
  that's why I say "of actual investor meetings." doing all the intros, and phone calls, and scheduling leading up to the meetings can take quiet a while and are necessary. But after you get to the "meeting phase", you really don't want to be spinning your wheels too long.
  - jkaljundi 16y ago
    A few related links: http://www.quora.com/Brendan-Baker/Anatomy-of-Seed-An-Inside-Look-at-a-1M-Seed-Round http://www.quora.com/Brendan-Baker/Anatomy-of-Seed-An-Inside... http://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it-typically-take-to-close-Angel-or-Series-A-financing-once-the-valuation-and-basic-terms-are-agreed-on http://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it-typically-take-to-clos... http://www.quora.com/For-a-seed-angel-round-how-long-does-it-typically-take-from-initial-pitch-to-closing-money-in-the-bank http://www.quora.com/For-a-seed-angel-round-how-long-does-it...
divya 16y ago
Great post! The thing that really rang true was the part about the fundraising/depression/derailment, and how that can lead a start-up to consider some random/terrible offers that would otherwise be totally bogus. Paul talked us off a few bad-acquisition cliffs as well. We certainly went through all of that at Jamglue. It's absolutely true that being a founder, especially the fundraising part, requires a really thick skin. Each time I think about doing another startup, I start having flashbacks to broken termsheets, bullshit EBITDA projections, and VC's telling us that they could introduce us to Quincy Jones (I swear, at least 7 different people told us this). When we came out of our fundraising stint (penniless), we realized that our product had suffered and we were completely broken people. The ability to be self-aware about the emotional roller-coaster is invaluable, and essential to forward progress. Thanks for this honest account so that others can make some sense about what they are feeling.
szcukg 16y ago
What a bloody good read......they say nothing in life that is worth having ever comes easy....stay there chad...grit it out....you'll reach where u want....success will come..good luck have fun
chr15 16y ago
I left my job to work on my startup full-time, and agree with all of this. It's one of the hardest things I've done. I had to detach myself from material possessions and live frugally. I don't have much of a social life anymore because it's expensive. I've had to force myself to work when I didn't feel like it days at a time. Programming was no longer fun. If you're not ready to sacrifice everything you have, possibly including your health, then work on your project on the side. You really do have to be crazy to be an entrepreneur. The positives: It's thickened my skin, I manage my finances better, I appreciate things more, I treat people better.
- arkitaip 16y ago
  Thanks for sharing that. We've had a lot of articles lately that treat startups like 9-5 jobs so I think it's important that people like you give some perspective on how it's really like for the waste majority of startups. This reminds me why passion is so crucial when starting your own business. You will work crazy under conditions that most employees would see as unreasonable and there is a great risk that the business will fail. But as long as your doing it out of passion you can motivate yourself through the hard times and, if it doesn't work out, walk away with the satisfying feeling that you followed your dream and gave it all you got. Would you say that your passion played an important part in managing your business?
  - chr15 16y ago
    Absolutely. I chose the entrepreneurship route because it's something I that I feel I was born to do. Of course, I try to maintain a healthy lifestyle and a positive demeanor on the outside despite sacrificing a lot. It will take a lot of adjustments if you decide to take the plunge full-time.
  - chr15 16y ago
    Absolutely. I chose the entrepreneurship route because it's something I that I feel I was born to do. Of course, I try to maintain a healthy lifestyle and a positive demeanor on the outside despite sacrificing a lot. It will take a lot of adjustments if you decide to bootstrap a startup full-time.
tptacek 16y ago
There's a meme to be spawned about things that work like the parole narrative in The Shawshank Redemption, where good things only happen when you decide to stop giving a shit about them. Deal closing of all sorts definitely fits it. In the meantime, perhaps console yourself this way: you haven't found the pitch that's opening investor wallets yet, and maybe that's a good thing. Maybe the pitch you're using isn't your best bet; maybe a "yes" at meeting 38 would have put you on a bad path. My friends and I got a high-seven-figures "yes" in '99 that ultimately killed our company. Meanwhile, Matasano went through exactly what you did in 2005; every company that found a "yes" got dead as a result. We're relieved to have dodged the funding trap. Best of luck to you. You don't need gatekeeping investors to succeed.
- deleted 16y ago
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- puredemo 16y ago
  Time and time again, anecdotes like this make me want to avoid investors entirely.
je42 16y ago
Thank you for posting this ! The whole post means quite a bit for me. Almost every word you write feels familiar. I wish you good luck with with your startup. Actually I wish all startups having difficulty raising the next round good luck.
fleaflicker 16y ago
The truth is, it hasn't been worth it at all... yet. What about being your own boss? What about learning & producing at 10 times the rate you would at a desk job? Also, I think you'll find there are plenty of "Nobodys" with past successes. Don't do it for the fame.
- jazzychad 16y ago
  Those fall into the "hard to quantify" category. They are positives, yes, but there are equal amounts of negatives to go along with them. Hard to measure exactly, so I went with the easiest way to measure "worth it" in terms of running a company... finances.
rmason 16y ago
This is the reality. I well remember hearing Steve Blank speak when he said nine out of ten of us in the audience would fail. But he said each of you are thinking that you will be the one who succeeds and are feeling sorry for the other nine. I didn't realize it at the time but he defined what it is to be an entrepreneur for us.
dools 16y ago
Wow you went on a cruise? You have money in the bank? You're going through YC again? Sounds awesome! Focus on the positives. You'll regret getting down in the dumps now, when you look back and realise how good you had it. Make the most of now and stop worrying so much.
- jazzychad 16y ago
  The cruise was a Christmas gift from my in-laws. No way we could have afforded it on our own :) Yes, there are plenty of positives to focus on, and that is what we are doing. It doesn't mean that there aren't still struggles.
  - dools 16y ago
    Certainly and it's good to hear about the struggles. I was chatting with a guy the other day about how little information there is about failure and how then only really spectacular failures make the news. There must be so much we can learn from people who don't quite make it, or who make it small time! When reading this post, though, I was just a little nonplussed at why you were telling me how hard it all is when it seems as though you're going pretty well.
MenaMena123 16y ago
Keep up the dream, screw going back to a 9 to 5 and something you settle for. Do what you love, I am in the same boat, I am moving down this summer to San Fran. and I think at times if I am making a mistake and say hell no! I rather be after my dream my whole life than settle for something. Its all about the chase of the dream.
- MenaMena123 16y ago
  Ps: Anyone wanting to meetup this summer in the Valley, I'm more than willing. Let me know. My first time. Rmena123 at Gmail
zackattack 16y ago
I always thought notifo was a terrible idea. It doesn't really add any value. Change your idea please. I mean look at your services page. The number one thing is "google voice alerts" so you can save money by not getting texts. Let's say you save someone $1. There's no way they're gonna pay you $1 for that. Then you also list Skribit on that page, a dead service. I would take the mobile notification technology and pivot to notifying about something people care about, like people in the vicinity with similar interests.
- jazzychad 16y ago
  There are a lot of non-public facing services using Notifo for internal communication/alerts. We do have an app in the pipeline that is an offshoot of Notifo's tech, though... coming soon. I'm sorry you thought it was such a terrible idea. It's hard to hear that coming from someone I have respected for a while and followed along with your successes with AR and CP.
  - zackattack 16y ago
    The good news is that I care enough to say what I really think despite the definite collateral damage to my reputation by saying something negative and going against the grain of what everyone here is saying? The social consequences to my statement make me think of pandas and lobsters - http://ifindkarma.posterous.com/pandas-and-lobsters-why-google-cannot-build-s http://ifindkarma.posterous.com/pandas-and-lobsters-why-goog... and I was eager to hear responses to my comment - perhaps related: http://cognitivesocialweb.com/home/2010/12/19/on-facebook-and-the-identity-reinforcement-theory.html http://cognitivesocialweb.com/home/2010/12/19/on-facebook-an... btw I've been rejected by YCombinator multiple times
    - jazzychad 16y ago
      I certainly do not begrudge you your opinion. I completely respect it. Thank you for being honest and not worried about what other people might think.
    - MicahWedemeyer 16y ago
ttran08 16y ago
Thanks for the great post! I don't think you'll ever quit until you succeed. I think the key to creating that one successful company is about trials and errors. "Learning doesn't happen from failure itself but rather from analyzing the failure, making a change, and then trying again." Don't be afraid to fail early and fail often, until you hit the nail right on the head. One thing I didn't understand from looking at your project is, why did you feel the need to get funding to begin with? It doesn't cost much to keep a website alive, and you have the support of your wife in order to continue developing for Notifo or a new project. I'm also a co-founder myself, so I'd like to know if there's something I'm missing here. :) Another thing I'm curious about is, why you're so set on sticking with Notifo, instead of moving on with a new idea? Is it because you already have tons of users and you need money to expand your company? I've only been involved with one website and I'm still learning, so it'd be great to learn more insights so I know what to expect ahead of time. :)
- jazzychad 16y ago
  Why raise money? We wanted to expand and move faster by hiring and finding office space. That takes a big chunk of money. Also, we are paying ourselves meager salaries in order to pay rent/bills, which also takes money. If we hadn't raised a Friends and Family round early last summer, we would already be dead. Raising another round was supposed to help us grow.
Eagleman99 16y ago
"A real entrepreneur is somebody who has no safety net underneath them." H.Kravis
adebelov 16y ago
As an entrepreneur reading your post, I couldn't sympathize more with your situation. Startups are hard, startups are not for everyone and as Arrington would say, you are not a pirate until you start a company. However, I would change your attitude a little bit. In your post you seem to focus on your sacrifices and being jealous of other successes. Well, when I see that Color and other startups raise a ton of money, I get SUPER excited! Why? Because if they can do it, I can do it too! As far as sacrifices go, realize that you are still better than 90% of the entire world. Being grateful for things that we have is a force multiplier. I am grateful for what I have and having the opportunity to build a company in Silicon Valley is a life long dream come true. Dreams are bigger than sacrifices. If you believe in yourself, you believe in your product, your customers will believe in you and your investors will too. Good luck. And enjoy the journey, in the end life is just a game (whether you are a doctor, investment banker or entrepreneur, we all have finite amount of time on this planet).
zacharytamas 16y ago
Good luck to you guys! I've known Paul a couple years and even helped him catch some bugs in Skribit back in the day. The article was very interesting as a friend and I are just starting to design and develop on an app idea that started out--like many do-- as a very small humble idea but with a lot of dreaming has evolved into an interesting solution. Good luck on Notifo, and with any luck maybe we'll cross paths somewhere.
cft 16y ago
What I find interesting, is that you can build a fairly large and profitable bootstrapped company, but unless you got VC money in the Silicon Valley the standard way, from the right people, you will always remain a bit of persona non grata, not particularly liked by Arrington, Techcrunch and the establishment. There will be no hype, no press, even if your revenue is larger than say Digg's in its heyday. I am speaking from experience, but I know of many other examples.
barisme 16y ago
Wow, your catharsis really comes through in your writing. If nothing else, maybe there's a memoir in all this ;) Seriously though, stay positive and stay in the habit of asking people for help when you're stuck. And don't just ask investors, 'cause their agenda might force them to say 'double or nothing' every time. Ask friends, other tech people, people who work on FOSS, old college professors, online friends. You need to develop, but you also need to spend a lot of time in front of other people. Also, make sure you're doing something you like. If the work is not rewarding, find something that is.
ad80 16y ago
Great post Chad, people thinking or already starting startups have to wake up and stop believing that if every second article on TC is about another funding, that there is already money waiting for them. And with regards to Nobody / Somebody.... this post, might get you closer than you think to Somebody ;) Good luck! You have the right product. Think what's missing...and is it really money?
hong 16y ago
I can't believe how much you sacrificed. Here I am thinking I had it hard. It's so great that you are upbeat and energetic long after the YC days despite all your sacrifice. Best of luck to all your efforts! Strange and pathetic as it may sound to my non-startup friends, I couldn't agree more on the point of having a support group. Everyday there are things pushing my limit, and if not for my friends, I would have gone crazy by now.
gersh 16y ago
Are starups really that hard, or do they just require certain skills? Is it luck? Are you in the wrong place in the wrong time? Do you just lack the necessary skills? Do you lack the social support? In school, you just gotta do what the teacher tells you to do, and you get an 'A'. You get a job and you just gotta be able to do what your boss wants you to do. Startups require you to find your own nitch, and do something different. No one is telling you what to do. So, you can work real hard and work like before, but end up pursuing an empty hole. However, is this really harder?
rogerjin 16y ago
I'm right there with you Chad. We've got a strong team, yet are still weeks away from launching, and it's just truly amazing how much failure and rejection we have faced over the past few months.
spottiness 16y ago
Your problem are irrationally high expectations. Most of us suffer from naive optimism and that is a great motivator, a harmless one if we use it to fuel our enthusiasm while working late at night. The problem arises when dehydration makes you see an Oasis everywhere, when you become delusional. We humans suck at calculating expected value, particularly when there are huge outcomes with very very very tiny probabilities. That's why so many people play the lottery and that's what you're doing: playing the lottery, and there's nothing you can do to win it. Even with your perseverance and focus, with your knowledge and hard work, if you win it you are just very lucky. On the other hand, there's a lot you can do to be happy. With your youth, your wife, your intelligence, and your hard work, if you don't reach a state of emotional satisfaction then you are very unlucky. My advice to you would be to define your threshold of success as something you can control. Focus on your surroundings. Get one client and satisfy him. Don't do it for money but for the pleasure of having an impact on somebody else. You can be your first client too; in fact, that's what we did when we built Spottiness: it's for us, we do what we can, we are nobodies and we don't care.
gsharma 16y ago
I understand the frustration when things are not moving along, but finding a solution to that is the only thing that filters out successful startups out of all the other startups. All the best with your YC Summer 2011! For what's it worth - Tim Westergren of Pandora pitched 300+ VCs before he raised money for series A. More on it: http://www.businessinsider.com/pandora-300-vc-rejections-2011-2 http://www.businessinsider.com/pandora-300-vc-rejections-201...
ojbyrne 16y ago
I think startups are like poker. - they're 80% luck and 20% skill - but the people who have been successful work hard to promote the idea (which they also generally believe) that they're 20% luck and 80% skill.
thomaspun 16y ago
Startups are harder than anything I have read online (yours definitely put another well needed perspective on this subject). I have also wondered why none of my investors (or even YC) asked what the founders sacrificed to do what they do. I"m so glad that your plan to go thru YC again worked out. Beer time! I so believe in you two and can't wait to see what comes out.
- PStamatiou 16y ago
  Beer time indeed Thomas! Thanks for chatting with us when we were down in the dumps. :) You guys are part of our startup support group. One of these days I'll be able to make it to one of your basketball games!
happyfeet 16y ago
Thanks for sharing this Chad. It means a lot to me, for someone who is just getting into startup life with wife and kid to support, giving up a well-paid 'secure' day job. An inspiring poem shared by my friend. Was read out by Winston Churchill at the beginning of Second World War. ----------------------------------------- SAY not the struggle naught availeth, The labour and the wounds are vain, The enemy faints not, nor faileth, And as things have been they remain. If hopes were dupes, fears may be liars; It may be, in yon smoke conceal'd, Your comrades chase e'en now the fliers, And, but for you, possess the field. For while the tired waves, vainly breaking, Seem here no painful inch to gain, Far back, through creeks and inlets making, Comes silent, flooding in, the main. And not by eastern windows only, When daylight comes, comes in the light; In front the sun climbs slow, how slowly! But westward, look, the land is bright! ---------------------------- Here is the paraphrase shared by the friend: Don’t say that the long struggle [against tyranny and injustice] is of no avail; don’t say that all your efforts, and all the injuries you’ve sustained, were in vain. Don’t say that the enemy’s just as strong as ever; and don’t say that nothing’s changed for the better! If the things you hoped for haven’t happened, well, maybe the things you’re scared of won’t happen either. Perhaps over there on the battlefield, now obscured by smoke, your comrades are chasing the enemy away, and all they need to ensure victory is that you go and join them. Look! Those waves don’t seem to be making much headway, even though the tide’s supposedly coming in. But far behind you, unseen creeks and inlets are swelling with incoming waters: the sea really is on the move after all! Look! The eastern window you’re sitting at isn’t the only place affected by sunrise; from there, yes, it’s true, the sun hardly seems to moving up the sky at all— but cross the room and look through a westward-facing casement: see how the whole landscape’s already flooded with light! Clough had just personally witnessed how Garibaldi's brave attempt to help preserve a new Roman Republic had been foiled when the forces of reaction (led, ironically enough, by the French) had successfully brought the Siege of Rome to an end in 1848. He was trying to cheer up fellow-supporters of reform and of independence for Italy. They were all feeling pretty downhearted. That's the historical context.
DanielBMarkham 16y ago
Here's another bit of sunshine to brighten your day: Looking at the stats, and hanging out on HN for a while, it occurs to me that having a successful startup might be the coolest thing you do in your life business-wise. A zillion guys kick ass on a startup after college, only to hang around the community for decades afterwards, looking to write a check, trying to get back in on the action. As rare as profitable startups are, repeat entrepreneurs are even rarer. Maybe you're that one-in-ten-million guy. Probably not. So if it takes 20 years, I wouldn't sweat it. If there's one thing I've learned to believe in, it's that everything in startups takes a lot longer and is a lot harder than you think it is. So even when you imagine this really tough and difficult journey lasting for years, it's probably going to be worse than that. I'm not saying that to encourage you to give up, I just wouldn't spend a second of my time waiting for the calvary to arrive, because they aren't.
- ra 16y ago
  > "...everything in startups takes a lot longer and is a lot harder than you think it is. So even when you imagine this really tough and difficult journey lasting for years, it's probably going to be worse than that." Never a truer word spoken.
meow 16y ago
Wow, thats an eye opening picture of startup life. I really hope these guys succeed.
hamiltonchan 16y ago
Super duper post, Chad. What you've done so remarkably in this post is you've captured "truth." Looking forward to one-upping you in comparing sad founder stories over beers.
cldcocomp 16y ago
who says startups are hard...then he's a 'fool' with his 'eye's shut...it's really much to do about nothing if ur'something' ehh? ;) lol....that's the 'key' boys & girls
cldcocomp 16y ago
I'm sorry but I don't agree with some of the comments I'm reading: I think the easiest part is the start up & the most challenging part is maintaining,stamina, endurance & persistance...stickin' it out 'til the end...when ur business turns over a profit or 'til u get bored, sell it or other factors outside of ur control that cause u to say 'start-up' is hard...start ups is actually 'soft' the 'cozy' fuzzy' part then comes the 'hard drive' dynamo elexctrifying maintanance 'GO' part, ehh? do u agree? show of hands? ;) lol...

410 points by tlb 16y ago

sabat 16y ago

This post is one long moan. Of course startups are hard. So is marriage, and so is jogging. So if you're doing it, you'd better love it, because if you don't, you're going to be miserable. You do it because you love building things and love to learn things -- and you can handle failure, whether it's temporary or permanent. You can recognize that you have not actually failed if you've learned in the process, made personal connections, etc. People doing startups need encouragement. They may need to be warned that this isn't easy, but they really don't need moans.

jazzychad 16y ago
My apologies if it seemed like a giant moan. I was just trying to give a slice of reality about our personal experiences. Startups and the Silicon Valley Life are made to look pretty glamorous, and I wanted to offer another viewpoint. I went into this whole thing being pretty naive about a lot of the process, so I wanted to relate some of the things I've learned along the way. I'm not looking for pity.
- dools 16y ago
  Although you haven't cracked the big time yet, this still all sounds pretty bloody glamorous to me!
- sabat 16y ago
  And, FWIW, I am not saying you have no reason to complain. But keep your chin up. If this one doesn't work out, you've learned a ton, and the next one will be better.
jng 16y ago
People thinking about doing startups do need views from different perspectives. The article is exactly that. It's not a moan, it's a pragmatic view from someone who drank the koolaid and is now seeing the reality, and shares it. It's probably something he himself would have wanted to read 2 years ago to have a more balanced view (even if he would probably have done it anyway!). Yes, the article is not too positive, because the author is not at a great point. But it's far from a moan. Also, some people doing startups do need encouragement, but some others need to be told that what they are doing is not valuable and they had better change course or go back home.
freshfunk 16y ago
Let me guess: You've never been a real entrepreneur. :]

pclark 16y ago

so wait, is notifo.com going through yc again? (I only ask, because if not, and notifo is dead, that sucks)

jazzychad 16y ago
Notifo is not dead, but the future is not certain (just as for any startup). We are going through YC again in order to figure things out and really figure out our direction for the future.
- pclark 16y ago
  Are you going in with that product?
  - jazzychad 16y ago
    We are going in as founders with ideas. Some info we can't reveal just yet, so I'll have to leave it at that.
    - nhangen 16y ago
      Well heck, getting into YC is a feat unto itself. Considering all of the others that can't even get that far, at least you have a glimmer of hope. Edit: I'm curious - why the downvote?
      - dwynings 16y ago
        I didn't downvote you, but if I had to guess, it'd be because people perceived "at least you have a glimmer of hope" as downplaying or minimizing their struggle.
        nhangen 16y ago
        Not at all. As someone going through very similar struggles, I can relate 100%.

a5seo 16y ago

Anyone thinking about moving to SF to launch a startup needs to read the Sacrifies and Startup Depression section 10x, assume it will be worse for you, and then decide. And doubly so if you're married. If your spouse isn't on board and you've minimized the challenge, you're screwed.

Cherian_Abraham 16y ago
We cannot afford to drop everthing and move to SF. And considering where we are (Richmond in Virginia) and our roots here, we feel like we owe this town. There are a lot of things we are surely missing out by not moving to the Valley, which is the startup ecosystem, the investors, the talent etc. But startups also have to deal with the noise, the saturation, and the "meh" when you launch. Where as in Richmond, we can possibly have a far bigger impact, with a lot more people who will love us, and we are right next to DC. I am sure we will not know if we made the right choice, for a long time. But I dont buy in to the belief that unless you are in the Valley, no one will give a damn (as touted by Vivek Wadhwa a few weeks ago). Any thoughts? EDIT: Needed to add a couple more thoughts that came out of the responses my post received. a) Its really hard to find talent in SF - Right now, we are one non-tech founder and two hackers. And finding android or iOS talent in Richmond is like looking for needles. But I believe that if you find a darn good hacker, then a new tool or language is just a speedbump. We are still trying to find a very good UX designer though. b) I agree with the Valley vibe. But it sounds more of a Goldrush than anything else. And I also agree with the vibrant support system that the Valley can provide. Right now, I get that through HN, blogs and my peers over email and phone.
- sawyer 16y ago
  Completely agree. I am in the same boat as a Canadian not wanting to move to the states. While it may be true that many investors will rule you out based on location; my firm belief is that first time entrepreneurs should spend their time acquiring customers, not investors. Customers generally don't mind if you're not in the valley (although it is true that if your product is built for tech oriented people the bay area may be a high customer saturation zone.)

trickjarrett 16y ago

Kudos to you for saying and admitting the hard things for the startup entrepreneur. Failing sucks. Struggling to not fail sucks even more because it can just drain you. Best of luck :)

lsiu 16y ago

Good read. I hope you make it someday!

stevelaz 16y ago

Great read! It's great to hear some of the brutal truth about attempting to do what we all love to dream about but mostly FAIL at.

stevenj 16y ago

I think that the "making something people want" at the right time is the hardest part, and maybe distribution as well. Execution is important. But I think many people have the skills to create what ends up being successful. Take Groupon for example. It made something a lot of people wanted. Could most people on Hacker News have made it? Sure. But Groupon created it before anyone else (I might be wrong about this?). Another example is HN. Pg has said that what he thinks users want most are quality articles and discussion. While it's "just a forum", I think Pg is right for not adding a lot of features, or spending the limited time he has working on the UI, and instead focusing on how people can discover quality articles and make/read quality comments. "Make something people want." It's simple, but it sure isn't easy.

jeromec 16y ago
I think Pg is right for not adding a lot of features, or spending the limited time he has working on the UI I believe HN's plain design is actually an intended feature, not a bug. From one of PG's essays: So the most important thing a community site can do is attract the kind of people it wants. A site trying to be as big as possible wants to attract everyone. But a site aiming at a particular subset of users has to attract just those—and just as importantly, repel everyone else. I've made a conscious effort to do this on HN. The graphic design is as plain as possible, and the site rules discourage dramatic link titles. http://paulgraham.com/hackernews.html http://paulgraham.com/hackernews.html
- stevenj 16y ago
  >I believe HN's plain design is actually an intended feature, not a bug. I agree. Though I've read several comments that suggest adding to it, and in general, I think doing that would make it less useful.
patio11 16y ago
Take Groupon for example. It made something a lot of people wanted. Could most people on Hacker News have made it? Sure. But Groupon created it before anyone else (I might be wrong about this?). Group buying has been done many, many times before, going back to the bubble. Many millions of dollars were burned to little avail. What Groupon actually nailed was all the hard parts of the business model that don't look really freaking difficult on the napkin -- particularly "signing up local merchants" and "cost-effective customer acquisition." That second one is relevant for virtually all businesses and gets disproportionately short shrift here.

sawyer 16y ago

It's anecdotes like these that reinforce my belief that for a bootstrapping pre-success founder it's easier to focus on revenue rather than investment. The growth curve might be slower, but the friction you face as a first time entrepreneur trying to raise money is deadly.

prpon 16y ago

Chad, Couldn't have said any better about startups being hard. I wish you and Paul success. You have so many things that are going right for you. Access to great mentors, being part of YC, being in the valley and having a supporting family. You just need that missing piece for which people would really pay. As a nobody, you have not much to lose. We will be here to cheer you on when you find that missing link.

bluekite2000 16y ago

You are still in a better situation than many here. SF's coffee shops are littered w/ debt-laden (pseudo)-hackers who have half-baked ideas/projects, no gf's (or wives), zero connection to anyone of value and sleeping on a sofa of some friend's musty apartment.

PStamatiou 16y ago
Haha I get lots of my work done at coffee shops. :)

ZackOfAllTrades 16y ago

"The less you need money, the more people want to give it to you." - some advice I have heard about finances. Applies to businesses selling a product, startups looking for money, and, especially well, to scholarships. The best indication that people should invest in you is that you don't need them to invest in you at all.

dabent 16y ago

Someone offered me a job recently. One of the people who interviewed me knew I had a side project that could become a startup. His advice was exactly what jazzychad said: startups are hard. He had been in one, so his advice meant something. I turned down the offer, but for reasons unrelated to my side project. Still I feel like my project/startup is floating in the Sargasso Sea. If you think getting funding in the Bay Area is hard, move to Atlanta. There's a reason Stammy is out there. And you can't be too much of a Nobody if you can get into YC twice. I wish team Notifo (or whatever your next project is) all the best.

jazzychad 16y ago
I think there are different degrees of Nobodiness and Somebodiness, but I also think there is a pretty big gap between the highest Nobody, and the lowest Somebody. Maybe I am moving up the Nobody scale :) I don't want to belabor the point or make it seem like I am self-deprecating, but you get the point.
- dabent 16y ago
  > I think there are different degrees of Nobodiness and Somebodiness Indeed. You now at least you know a Somebody or two. Many folks don't get that far. A misquote from the article (my perspective): > Am I jealous of other companies' success? I would be lying if I said no. I am slightly jealous when I wake up and read another story about some company getting into YC when I didn't even get an interview. I'd also be lying if I wasn't genuinely happy for every company that gets any sort of success, because I'm now getting a taste for how hard it really is.
- webwright 16y ago
  I think the nobody/somebody line is oftentimes: "were you a part of a team/company that made money for investors". If you are, it seems like funding often falls like rain-- people think whatever alchemy that company had might have rubbed off on you. Brilliant post, Chad. Many thanks.

Maro 16y ago

Great post. I've also had "Startup depression" where I didn't sleep for 1 week and was totally unproductive for a grand total of 2-3 weeks. Ever since then I stopped recommending doing startups to my friends. We've also experienced the "You're Nobody until you're Somebody problem." The work-around we're trying right now is to bring a (non-technical) "Somebody" onboard as a partner/founder, who is also, unlike us, located in the US where our market is. Location has also come up in this thread. Early on I thought that thanks to the Internet location matters "less". Not true. You have to be where your investors/customers are. Deals require massive face time.

JoeAltmaier 16y ago

So startups the YC way are hard. The sacrifice is self-inflicted, and avoidable - just give up more of your company up front, or choose a more visible partner, or have a spouse that has a real income to start with, or work at BigCo then quit and create something they need and lease/contract it back to them, etc. Its winning the lottery that is hard, and only because you make it hard on yourself for that big prize.

jazzychad 16y ago
No pain, no gain.

noelsequeira 16y ago

While the entire post is both cathartic and poignant, one line stood out for me because of its brutal honesty. Am I jealous of other companies' success? I would be lying if I said no. Thank you for saying this. I've always wanted to, but feared I'd be called out for it. In public. In fact, I think it's part of what keeps the fire burning inside - that constant hunger to try and figure out why some folks are plain better / more successful at the game, and then trying and internalizing / applying those lessons. And it can get frustrating when you can't replicate / emulate what others have achieved seemingly easily. As a corollary, this is probably why Jack Dorsey and Dennis Crowley are enigmas unto themselves. An important aside: Chad, I'm someone who has tracked (and may I add envied) the Notifo story. And I admire the work you've done, from fanout.js, to snagging Paul for a co-founder, to HN for Android, to PicAFight, to GramFrame, to Vorepad........I've found myself in awe of how prolific you've been (and you don't even know me). It's possible you've been doing one thing too many (because you love APIs and can't keep from tinkering with them). What I'm convinced of, is that you have the talent, the work ethic and an incredible co-founder. All the best, I'm hoping I have to transition back into pure envy real soon.

jazzychad 16y ago
Thank you for this. I was doing all that "one thing too many" stuff during the "crap, what are we gonna do now" phase where we weren't super productive and just played around with prototyping some ideas. Not shipping anything made me feel terrible, so we spent some time making random side-projects to stay sharp. All of them were good learning exercises, too. I made sure that each project had some part of it that I didn't know how to do, so it would force me to learn new things.
- auston 16y ago
  I never understood why you didn't charge for Notifo? I would have paid something for it.
  - kwis 16y ago
    The #1 reason I ignored notifo is I couldn't understand the business model. As such, for our internal systems, we notify via SMS, email and jabber. Things that I know will still be around in a year.

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ChuckMcM 16y ago

Nicely done. I especially liked "We let them [the investors] dictate our path with their negative signaling instead of listening to our guts." This trap is something that is so easy to fall into and so painful to pull out of. My first startup had a 'star' VC fronting it, he loved the concept but didn't really understand that his vision was often in conflict with the founder's vision. That really hurt as the company was ripped too and fro trying to achieve a couple of really orthogonal goals. Tom Lyon once told me that really it takes three startups before you 'get it'. One which is a somplete disaster, it helps you see what you did wrong and what can go wrong. One which isn't a complete disaster but exits sideways, which is to say you work at it day and night but when it exits you find yourself exactly where you were when you started. Then the third one where you know what to expect, you have a solid idea of what not to do and you keep laser focused on getting in, getting done, and getting it shipped. It is very hard though, always.

jkaljundi 16y ago

"if you are having trouble putting together a round in the first few weeks of actual investor meetings, just say, "screw it," and get back to working ASAP." - this seems a little extreme, to say the least, not sure I agree. It might apply to some premium selected YC startups in frothy Silicon Valley conditions, but not in general. Putting together a round takes time and quite often much much more than a few weeks.

jazzychad 16y ago
that's why I say "of actual investor meetings." doing all the intros, and phone calls, and scheduling leading up to the meetings can take quiet a while and are necessary. But after you get to the "meeting phase", you really don't want to be spinning your wheels too long.
- jkaljundi 16y ago
  A few related links: http://www.quora.com/Brendan-Baker/Anatomy-of-Seed-An-Inside-Look-at-a-1M-Seed-Round http://www.quora.com/Brendan-Baker/Anatomy-of-Seed-An-Inside... http://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it-typically-take-to-close-Angel-or-Series-A-financing-once-the-valuation-and-basic-terms-are-agreed-on http://www.quora.com/How-long-does-it-typically-take-to-clos... http://www.quora.com/For-a-seed-angel-round-how-long-does-it-typically-take-from-initial-pitch-to-closing-money-in-the-bank http://www.quora.com/For-a-seed-angel-round-how-long-does-it...

divya 16y ago

Great post! The thing that really rang true was the part about the fundraising/depression/derailment, and how that can lead a start-up to consider some random/terrible offers that would otherwise be totally bogus. Paul talked us off a few bad-acquisition cliffs as well. We certainly went through all of that at Jamglue. It's absolutely true that being a founder, especially the fundraising part, requires a really thick skin. Each time I think about doing another startup, I start having flashbacks to broken termsheets, bullshit EBITDA projections, and VC's telling us that they could introduce us to Quincy Jones (I swear, at least 7 different people told us this). When we came out of our fundraising stint (penniless), we realized that our product had suffered and we were completely broken people. The ability to be self-aware about the emotional roller-coaster is invaluable, and essential to forward progress. Thanks for this honest account so that others can make some sense about what they are feeling.

szcukg 16y ago

What a bloody good read......they say nothing in life that is worth having ever comes easy....stay there chad...grit it out....you'll reach where u want....success will come..good luck have fun

chr15 16y ago

I left my job to work on my startup full-time, and agree with all of this. It's one of the hardest things I've done. I had to detach myself from material possessions and live frugally. I don't have much of a social life anymore because it's expensive. I've had to force myself to work when I didn't feel like it days at a time. Programming was no longer fun. If you're not ready to sacrifice everything you have, possibly including your health, then work on your project on the side. You really do have to be crazy to be an entrepreneur. The positives: It's thickened my skin, I manage my finances better, I appreciate things more, I treat people better.

arkitaip 16y ago
Thanks for sharing that. We've had a lot of articles lately that treat startups like 9-5 jobs so I think it's important that people like you give some perspective on how it's really like for the waste majority of startups. This reminds me why passion is so crucial when starting your own business. You will work crazy under conditions that most employees would see as unreasonable and there is a great risk that the business will fail. But as long as your doing it out of passion you can motivate yourself through the hard times and, if it doesn't work out, walk away with the satisfying feeling that you followed your dream and gave it all you got. Would you say that your passion played an important part in managing your business?
- chr15 16y ago
  Absolutely. I chose the entrepreneurship route because it's something I that I feel I was born to do. Of course, I try to maintain a healthy lifestyle and a positive demeanor on the outside despite sacrificing a lot. It will take a lot of adjustments if you decide to take the plunge full-time.
- chr15 16y ago
  Absolutely. I chose the entrepreneurship route because it's something I that I feel I was born to do. Of course, I try to maintain a healthy lifestyle and a positive demeanor on the outside despite sacrificing a lot. It will take a lot of adjustments if you decide to bootstrap a startup full-time.

tptacek 16y ago

There's a meme to be spawned about things that work like the parole narrative in The Shawshank Redemption, where good things only happen when you decide to stop giving a shit about them. Deal closing of all sorts definitely fits it. In the meantime, perhaps console yourself this way: you haven't found the pitch that's opening investor wallets yet, and maybe that's a good thing. Maybe the pitch you're using isn't your best bet; maybe a "yes" at meeting 38 would have put you on a bad path. My friends and I got a high-seven-figures "yes" in '99 that ultimately killed our company. Meanwhile, Matasano went through exactly what you did in 2005; every company that found a "yes" got dead as a result. We're relieved to have dodged the funding trap. Best of luck to you. You don't need gatekeeping investors to succeed.

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puredemo 16y ago
Time and time again, anecdotes like this make me want to avoid investors entirely.

je42 16y ago

Thank you for posting this ! The whole post means quite a bit for me. Almost every word you write feels familiar. I wish you good luck with with your startup. Actually I wish all startups having difficulty raising the next round good luck.

fleaflicker 16y ago

The truth is, it hasn't been worth it at all... yet. What about being your own boss? What about learning & producing at 10 times the rate you would at a desk job? Also, I think you'll find there are plenty of "Nobodys" with past successes. Don't do it for the fame.

jazzychad 16y ago
Those fall into the "hard to quantify" category. They are positives, yes, but there are equal amounts of negatives to go along with them. Hard to measure exactly, so I went with the easiest way to measure "worth it" in terms of running a company... finances.

rmason 16y ago

This is the reality. I well remember hearing Steve Blank speak when he said nine out of ten of us in the audience would fail. But he said each of you are thinking that you will be the one who succeeds and are feeling sorry for the other nine. I didn't realize it at the time but he defined what it is to be an entrepreneur for us.

dools 16y ago

Wow you went on a cruise? You have money in the bank? You're going through YC again? Sounds awesome! Focus on the positives. You'll regret getting down in the dumps now, when you look back and realise how good you had it. Make the most of now and stop worrying so much.

jazzychad 16y ago
The cruise was a Christmas gift from my in-laws. No way we could have afforded it on our own :) Yes, there are plenty of positives to focus on, and that is what we are doing. It doesn't mean that there aren't still struggles.
- dools 16y ago
  Certainly and it's good to hear about the struggles. I was chatting with a guy the other day about how little information there is about failure and how then only really spectacular failures make the news. There must be so much we can learn from people who don't quite make it, or who make it small time! When reading this post, though, I was just a little nonplussed at why you were telling me how hard it all is when it seems as though you're going pretty well.

MenaMena123 16y ago

Keep up the dream, screw going back to a 9 to 5 and something you settle for. Do what you love, I am in the same boat, I am moving down this summer to San Fran. and I think at times if I am making a mistake and say hell no! I rather be after my dream my whole life than settle for something. Its all about the chase of the dream.

MenaMena123 16y ago
Ps: Anyone wanting to meetup this summer in the Valley, I'm more than willing. Let me know. My first time. Rmena123 at Gmail

zackattack 16y ago

I always thought notifo was a terrible idea. It doesn't really add any value. Change your idea please. I mean look at your services page. The number one thing is "google voice alerts" so you can save money by not getting texts. Let's say you save someone $1. There's no way they're gonna pay you $1 for that. Then you also list Skribit on that page, a dead service. I would take the mobile notification technology and pivot to notifying about something people care about, like people in the vicinity with similar interests.

jazzychad 16y ago
There are a lot of non-public facing services using Notifo for internal communication/alerts. We do have an app in the pipeline that is an offshoot of Notifo's tech, though... coming soon. I'm sorry you thought it was such a terrible idea. It's hard to hear that coming from someone I have respected for a while and followed along with your successes with AR and CP.
- zackattack 16y ago
  The good news is that I care enough to say what I really think despite the definite collateral damage to my reputation by saying something negative and going against the grain of what everyone here is saying? The social consequences to my statement make me think of pandas and lobsters - http://ifindkarma.posterous.com/pandas-and-lobsters-why-google-cannot-build-s http://ifindkarma.posterous.com/pandas-and-lobsters-why-goog... and I was eager to hear responses to my comment - perhaps related: http://cognitivesocialweb.com/home/2010/12/19/on-facebook-and-the-identity-reinforcement-theory.html http://cognitivesocialweb.com/home/2010/12/19/on-facebook-an... btw I've been rejected by YCombinator multiple times
  - jazzychad 16y ago
    I certainly do not begrudge you your opinion. I completely respect it. Thank you for being honest and not worried about what other people might think.
  - MicahWedemeyer 16y ago

ttran08 16y ago

Thanks for the great post! I don't think you'll ever quit until you succeed. I think the key to creating that one successful company is about trials and errors. "Learning doesn't happen from failure itself but rather from analyzing the failure, making a change, and then trying again." Don't be afraid to fail early and fail often, until you hit the nail right on the head. One thing I didn't understand from looking at your project is, why did you feel the need to get funding to begin with? It doesn't cost much to keep a website alive, and you have the support of your wife in order to continue developing for Notifo or a new project. I'm also a co-founder myself, so I'd like to know if there's something I'm missing here. :) Another thing I'm curious about is, why you're so set on sticking with Notifo, instead of moving on with a new idea? Is it because you already have tons of users and you need money to expand your company? I've only been involved with one website and I'm still learning, so it'd be great to learn more insights so I know what to expect ahead of time. :)

jazzychad 16y ago
Why raise money? We wanted to expand and move faster by hiring and finding office space. That takes a big chunk of money. Also, we are paying ourselves meager salaries in order to pay rent/bills, which also takes money. If we hadn't raised a Friends and Family round early last summer, we would already be dead. Raising another round was supposed to help us grow.

Eagleman99 16y ago

"A real entrepreneur is somebody who has no safety net underneath them." H.Kravis

adebelov 16y ago

As an entrepreneur reading your post, I couldn't sympathize more with your situation. Startups are hard, startups are not for everyone and as Arrington would say, you are not a pirate until you start a company. However, I would change your attitude a little bit. In your post you seem to focus on your sacrifices and being jealous of other successes. Well, when I see that Color and other startups raise a ton of money, I get SUPER excited! Why? Because if they can do it, I can do it too! As far as sacrifices go, realize that you are still better than 90% of the entire world. Being grateful for things that we have is a force multiplier. I am grateful for what I have and having the opportunity to build a company in Silicon Valley is a life long dream come true. Dreams are bigger than sacrifices. If you believe in yourself, you believe in your product, your customers will believe in you and your investors will too. Good luck. And enjoy the journey, in the end life is just a game (whether you are a doctor, investment banker or entrepreneur, we all have finite amount of time on this planet).

zacharytamas 16y ago

Good luck to you guys! I've known Paul a couple years and even helped him catch some bugs in Skribit back in the day. The article was very interesting as a friend and I are just starting to design and develop on an app idea that started out--like many do-- as a very small humble idea but with a lot of dreaming has evolved into an interesting solution. Good luck on Notifo, and with any luck maybe we'll cross paths somewhere.

cft 16y ago

What I find interesting, is that you can build a fairly large and profitable bootstrapped company, but unless you got VC money in the Silicon Valley the standard way, from the right people, you will always remain a bit of persona non grata, not particularly liked by Arrington, Techcrunch and the establishment. There will be no hype, no press, even if your revenue is larger than say Digg's in its heyday. I am speaking from experience, but I know of many other examples.

barisme 16y ago

Wow, your catharsis really comes through in your writing. If nothing else, maybe there's a memoir in all this ;) Seriously though, stay positive and stay in the habit of asking people for help when you're stuck. And don't just ask investors, 'cause their agenda might force them to say 'double or nothing' every time. Ask friends, other tech people, people who work on FOSS, old college professors, online friends. You need to develop, but you also need to spend a lot of time in front of other people. Also, make sure you're doing something you like. If the work is not rewarding, find something that is.

ad80 16y ago

Great post Chad, people thinking or already starting startups have to wake up and stop believing that if every second article on TC is about another funding, that there is already money waiting for them. And with regards to Nobody / Somebody.... this post, might get you closer than you think to Somebody ;) Good luck! You have the right product. Think what's missing...and is it really money?

hong 16y ago

I can't believe how much you sacrificed. Here I am thinking I had it hard. It's so great that you are upbeat and energetic long after the YC days despite all your sacrifice. Best of luck to all your efforts! Strange and pathetic as it may sound to my non-startup friends, I couldn't agree more on the point of having a support group. Everyday there are things pushing my limit, and if not for my friends, I would have gone crazy by now.

gersh 16y ago

Are starups really that hard, or do they just require certain skills? Is it luck? Are you in the wrong place in the wrong time? Do you just lack the necessary skills? Do you lack the social support? In school, you just gotta do what the teacher tells you to do, and you get an 'A'. You get a job and you just gotta be able to do what your boss wants you to do. Startups require you to find your own nitch, and do something different. No one is telling you what to do. So, you can work real hard and work like before, but end up pursuing an empty hole. However, is this really harder?

rogerjin 16y ago

I'm right there with you Chad. We've got a strong team, yet are still weeks away from launching, and it's just truly amazing how much failure and rejection we have faced over the past few months.

spottiness 16y ago

Your problem are irrationally high expectations. Most of us suffer from naive optimism and that is a great motivator, a harmless one if we use it to fuel our enthusiasm while working late at night. The problem arises when dehydration makes you see an Oasis everywhere, when you become delusional. We humans suck at calculating expected value, particularly when there are huge outcomes with very very very tiny probabilities. That's why so many people play the lottery and that's what you're doing: playing the lottery, and there's nothing you can do to win it. Even with your perseverance and focus, with your knowledge and hard work, if you win it you are just very lucky. On the other hand, there's a lot you can do to be happy. With your youth, your wife, your intelligence, and your hard work, if you don't reach a state of emotional satisfaction then you are very unlucky. My advice to you would be to define your threshold of success as something you can control. Focus on your surroundings. Get one client and satisfy him. Don't do it for money but for the pleasure of having an impact on somebody else. You can be your first client too; in fact, that's what we did when we built Spottiness: it's for us, we do what we can, we are nobodies and we don't care.

gsharma 16y ago

I understand the frustration when things are not moving along, but finding a solution to that is the only thing that filters out successful startups out of all the other startups. All the best with your YC Summer 2011! For what's it worth - Tim Westergren of Pandora pitched 300+ VCs before he raised money for series A. More on it: http://www.businessinsider.com/pandora-300-vc-rejections-2011-2 http://www.businessinsider.com/pandora-300-vc-rejections-201...

ojbyrne 16y ago

I think startups are like poker. - they're 80% luck and 20% skill - but the people who have been successful work hard to promote the idea (which they also generally believe) that they're 20% luck and 80% skill.

thomaspun 16y ago

Startups are harder than anything I have read online (yours definitely put another well needed perspective on this subject). I have also wondered why none of my investors (or even YC) asked what the founders sacrificed to do what they do. I"m so glad that your plan to go thru YC again worked out. Beer time! I so believe in you two and can't wait to see what comes out.

PStamatiou 16y ago
Beer time indeed Thomas! Thanks for chatting with us when we were down in the dumps. :) You guys are part of our startup support group. One of these days I'll be able to make it to one of your basketball games!

happyfeet 16y ago

Thanks for sharing this Chad. It means a lot to me, for someone who is just getting into startup life with wife and kid to support, giving up a well-paid 'secure' day job. An inspiring poem shared by my friend. Was read out by Winston Churchill at the beginning of Second World War. ----------------------------------------- SAY not the struggle naught availeth, The labour and the wounds are vain, The enemy faints not, nor faileth, And as things have been they remain. If hopes were dupes, fears may be liars; It may be, in yon smoke conceal'd, Your comrades chase e'en now the fliers, And, but for you, possess the field. For while the tired waves, vainly breaking, Seem here no painful inch to gain, Far back, through creeks and inlets making, Comes silent, flooding in, the main. And not by eastern windows only, When daylight comes, comes in the light; In front the sun climbs slow, how slowly! But westward, look, the land is bright! ---------------------------- Here is the paraphrase shared by the friend: Don’t say that the long struggle [against tyranny and injustice] is of no avail; don’t say that all your efforts, and all the injuries you’ve sustained, were in vain. Don’t say that the enemy’s just as strong as ever; and don’t say that nothing’s changed for the better! If the things you hoped for haven’t happened, well, maybe the things you’re scared of won’t happen either. Perhaps over there on the battlefield, now obscured by smoke, your comrades are chasing the enemy away, and all they need to ensure victory is that you go and join them. Look! Those waves don’t seem to be making much headway, even though the tide’s supposedly coming in. But far behind you, unseen creeks and inlets are swelling with incoming waters: the sea really is on the move after all! Look! The eastern window you’re sitting at isn’t the only place affected by sunrise; from there, yes, it’s true, the sun hardly seems to moving up the sky at all— but cross the room and look through a westward-facing casement: see how the whole landscape’s already flooded with light! Clough had just personally witnessed how Garibaldi's brave attempt to help preserve a new Roman Republic had been foiled when the forces of reaction (led, ironically enough, by the French) had successfully brought the Siege of Rome to an end in 1848. He was trying to cheer up fellow-supporters of reform and of independence for Italy. They were all feeling pretty downhearted. That's the historical context.

DanielBMarkham 16y ago

Here's another bit of sunshine to brighten your day: Looking at the stats, and hanging out on HN for a while, it occurs to me that having a successful startup might be the coolest thing you do in your life business-wise. A zillion guys kick ass on a startup after college, only to hang around the community for decades afterwards, looking to write a check, trying to get back in on the action. As rare as profitable startups are, repeat entrepreneurs are even rarer. Maybe you're that one-in-ten-million guy. Probably not. So if it takes 20 years, I wouldn't sweat it. If there's one thing I've learned to believe in, it's that everything in startups takes a lot longer and is a lot harder than you think it is. So even when you imagine this really tough and difficult journey lasting for years, it's probably going to be worse than that. I'm not saying that to encourage you to give up, I just wouldn't spend a second of my time waiting for the calvary to arrive, because they aren't.

ra 16y ago
> "...everything in startups takes a lot longer and is a lot harder than you think it is. So even when you imagine this really tough and difficult journey lasting for years, it's probably going to be worse than that." Never a truer word spoken.

meow 16y ago

Wow, thats an eye opening picture of startup life. I really hope these guys succeed.

hamiltonchan 16y ago

Super duper post, Chad. What you've done so remarkably in this post is you've captured "truth." Looking forward to one-upping you in comparing sad founder stories over beers.

cldcocomp 16y ago

who says startups are hard...then he's a 'fool' with his 'eye's shut...it's really much to do about nothing if ur'something' ehh? ;) lol....that's the 'key' boys & girls

cldcocomp 16y ago

I'm sorry but I don't agree with some of the comments I'm reading: I think the easiest part is the start up & the most challenging part is maintaining,stamina, endurance & persistance...stickin' it out 'til the end...when ur business turns over a profit or 'til u get bored, sell it or other factors outside of ur control that cause u to say 'start-up' is hard...start ups is actually 'soft' the 'cozy' fuzzy' part then comes the 'hard drive' dynamo elexctrifying maintanance 'GO' part, ehh? do u agree? show of hands? ;) lol...