4 ms·

There's this weird cultural/mental divide between "Masculine" meaning being rough and fighting and "Feminine" dealing with emotions and non-aggression. This thi

There's this weird cultural/mental divide between "Masculine" meaning being rough and fighting and "Feminine" dealing with emotions and non-aggression. This this exactly the issue worrying me about my own son. These "Masculine" traits you talk about are toxic as heck. Getting into bar fights promotes an unhealthy mentality that spreads into other parts of your life. For example, if your okay with hitting other people at a bar, you might be more prone to abusing your children by using corporal punishment. I don't believe in toxic masculinity, but I do believe that there is a heck of a lot of toxic things men take into their identity. If you assimilate something into your identity, you no longer have the power to change that thing within yourself.

deleted 6y ago
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adenadel 6y ago
I am not well-informed on this topic, but isn't men incorporating toxic things into their identity precisely what toxic masculinity is (i.e. to me it sounds like you do believe in toxic masculinity)? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I want to learn.
- nayaketo 6y ago
  I've seen this term 'toxic masculinity' being used to describe anything from asserting yourself very firmly on discussion/debates to opening doors to your (female) partner. I'm not even sure what it means anymore.
- djaque 6y ago
  Also certainly not an expert here, but here is a good definition I found: > Toxic masculinity is a narrow and repressive description of manhood, designating manhood as defined by violence, sex, status and aggression. It’s the cultural ideal of manliness, where strength is everything while emotions are a weakness; where sex and brutality are yardsticks by which men are measured, while supposedly “feminine” traits—which can range from emotional vulnerability to simply not being hypersexual—are the means by which your status as “man” can be taken away. It seems to be a catch all term for the problematic parts of the way men are idealized by society. IE stuff like how men can be expected to hide away their emotions or be perceived as weak. Stuff like that shows up in suicide statistics. Part of the problem with understanding the concept, IMO, is that ideological forces have managed to sway part of the public (or at least certain echo chambers) into believing that the people talking about it really mean "all men are bad" or "traditional masculinity is bad." I think there's something real here that needs to be addressed though. Edit: Case and point... somebody further down in this thread accused the term "toxic masculinity" of being designed by "academic Marxist feminists" who are waging culture wars in order to hyper-feminize small boys. [1] https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-difference-between-toxic-masculinity-and-being-a-man-dg/ https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-difference-b...
  - Khaine 6y ago
    Because the term is bullshit. I would be willing to read the phrase in a more charitable light if there was symmetry in these discussions associating negative female traits as toxic femininity. There is no symmetry. Negative feminine traits aren’t linked to gender. They are separated and abstracted from gender. The phrase toxic masculinity is used as to bludgeon masculine things and men. It also goes against studies that show Young Men Who Endorse The Masculine Ideal of Success Enjoy Greater Psychological Wellbeing[1] "The findings are mixed, but given the recent cultural emphasis on toxic masculinity, one result stands out: young men who, on the “Conformity to Masculine Norms” scale, more strongly endorsed the masculine ideal of “success and winning” (they agreed with statements like “In general, I will do anything to win”), tended to score higher on psychological wellbeing six months later. “Men who adhere to this norm may experience a sense of mastery and achievement through their accomplishments,” said the researchers, led by Aylin Kaya at the University of Maryland, “which can in turn boost their eudaemonic well-being.”" Not only is the belief in a code of “true manliness” nearly universal, there are, as anthropologist Thomas Gregor puts it, “continuities of masculinity that transcend cultural differences.” While every society’s idea of what constitutes a “real man” has been molded by their unique histories, environments, and dominant religious beliefs, Gilmore found that almost all them share three common imperatives or moral injunctions — what I’ve taken to calling the 3 P’s of Manhood: a male who aspires to be a man must protect, procreate, and provide. What is so striking is that this triad of male imperatives can be found in cultures that share little else in common. They are the “deep structures of masculinity” and are present in societies that are patriarchal as well as those that are relatively egalitarian, primitive as well as urban, bellicose as well as peaceable. The 3 P’s are not universal, as there are a few cultures where no ideal of manhood exists at all. But these exceptions are so rare, and so, well, exceptional, that the code is, if not universal, than highly ubiquitous. From https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/the-3-ps-of-manhood-protect/ https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/the-3-ps-of-manhood-... These are positive traits, it is hard to see what is so toxic about them, and therefore the phrase toxic masculinity feels like it is just attacking men for being men. Collectively, all this toxic masculinity talk and feminising of the world has done is created an entire generation who cannot solve their own problems. Any problem they have they run off to an authority figure to resolve. You constantly read about stories like this: Billy said something I found offensive. Kelly didn't like it. She didn't explain any of this to billy, instead she ran off to the Dean to complain. [1] https://digest.bps.org.uk/2019/01/18/young-men-who-endorse-the-masculine-ideal-of-success-enjoy-greater-psychological-wellbeing/ https://digest.bps.org.uk/2019/01/18/young-men-who-endorse-t...
Viliam1234 6y ago
> "Masculine" meaning being rough and fighting and "Feminine" dealing with emotions and non-aggression There are good and bad parts of each side. For example, you can drive someone to suicide using the power of gossip... that could be called toxic feminity, I suppose. And it is more likely to be tolerated at schools than e.g. fighting back against your bully, which is a healthy masculine behavior, but according to "zero tolerance" policy makes you exactly as bad as the bully. This is the cultural problem, that we are only allowed to talk about the parts of masculine behavior that are considered bad, and the parts of feminine behavior that are considered good. In reality, both are a mixed bag.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

adenadel 6y ago

I am not well-informed on this topic, but isn't men incorporating toxic things into their identity precisely what toxic masculinity is (i.e. to me it sounds like you do believe in toxic masculinity)? Please correct me if I'm wrong. I want to learn.

nayaketo 6y ago
I've seen this term 'toxic masculinity' being used to describe anything from asserting yourself very firmly on discussion/debates to opening doors to your (female) partner. I'm not even sure what it means anymore.
djaque 6y ago
Also certainly not an expert here, but here is a good definition I found: > Toxic masculinity is a narrow and repressive description of manhood, designating manhood as defined by violence, sex, status and aggression. It’s the cultural ideal of manliness, where strength is everything while emotions are a weakness; where sex and brutality are yardsticks by which men are measured, while supposedly “feminine” traits—which can range from emotional vulnerability to simply not being hypersexual—are the means by which your status as “man” can be taken away. It seems to be a catch all term for the problematic parts of the way men are idealized by society. IE stuff like how men can be expected to hide away their emotions or be perceived as weak. Stuff like that shows up in suicide statistics. Part of the problem with understanding the concept, IMO, is that ideological forces have managed to sway part of the public (or at least certain echo chambers) into believing that the people talking about it really mean "all men are bad" or "traditional masculinity is bad." I think there's something real here that needs to be addressed though. Edit: Case and point... somebody further down in this thread accused the term "toxic masculinity" of being designed by "academic Marxist feminists" who are waging culture wars in order to hyper-feminize small boys. [1] https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-difference-between-toxic-masculinity-and-being-a-man-dg/ https://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/the-difference-b...
- Khaine 6y ago
  Because the term is bullshit. I would be willing to read the phrase in a more charitable light if there was symmetry in these discussions associating negative female traits as toxic femininity. There is no symmetry. Negative feminine traits aren’t linked to gender. They are separated and abstracted from gender. The phrase toxic masculinity is used as to bludgeon masculine things and men. It also goes against studies that show Young Men Who Endorse The Masculine Ideal of Success Enjoy Greater Psychological Wellbeing[1] "The findings are mixed, but given the recent cultural emphasis on toxic masculinity, one result stands out: young men who, on the “Conformity to Masculine Norms” scale, more strongly endorsed the masculine ideal of “success and winning” (they agreed with statements like “In general, I will do anything to win”), tended to score higher on psychological wellbeing six months later. “Men who adhere to this norm may experience a sense of mastery and achievement through their accomplishments,” said the researchers, led by Aylin Kaya at the University of Maryland, “which can in turn boost their eudaemonic well-being.”" Not only is the belief in a code of “true manliness” nearly universal, there are, as anthropologist Thomas Gregor puts it, “continuities of masculinity that transcend cultural differences.” While every society’s idea of what constitutes a “real man” has been molded by their unique histories, environments, and dominant religious beliefs, Gilmore found that almost all them share three common imperatives or moral injunctions — what I’ve taken to calling the 3 P’s of Manhood: a male who aspires to be a man must protect, procreate, and provide. What is so striking is that this triad of male imperatives can be found in cultures that share little else in common. They are the “deep structures of masculinity” and are present in societies that are patriarchal as well as those that are relatively egalitarian, primitive as well as urban, bellicose as well as peaceable. The 3 P’s are not universal, as there are a few cultures where no ideal of manhood exists at all. But these exceptions are so rare, and so, well, exceptional, that the code is, if not universal, than highly ubiquitous. From https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/the-3-ps-of-manhood-protect/ https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/the-3-ps-of-manhood-... These are positive traits, it is hard to see what is so toxic about them, and therefore the phrase toxic masculinity feels like it is just attacking men for being men. Collectively, all this toxic masculinity talk and feminising of the world has done is created an entire generation who cannot solve their own problems. Any problem they have they run off to an authority figure to resolve. You constantly read about stories like this: Billy said something I found offensive. Kelly didn't like it. She didn't explain any of this to billy, instead she ran off to the Dean to complain. [1] https://digest.bps.org.uk/2019/01/18/young-men-who-endorse-the-masculine-ideal-of-success-enjoy-greater-psychological-wellbeing/ https://digest.bps.org.uk/2019/01/18/young-men-who-endorse-t...

Viliam1234 6y ago

> "Masculine" meaning being rough and fighting and "Feminine" dealing with emotions and non-aggression There are good and bad parts of each side. For example, you can drive someone to suicide using the power of gossip... that could be called toxic feminity, I suppose. And it is more likely to be tolerated at schools than e.g. fighting back against your bully, which is a healthy masculine behavior, but according to "zero tolerance" policy makes you exactly as bad as the bully. This is the cultural problem, that we are only allowed to talk about the parts of masculine behavior that are considered bad, and the parts of feminine behavior that are considered good. In reality, both are a mixed bag.