6 ms·

The suggestion here is that the divorce rate is dropping because fewer people are getting married, so those that do get married are more likely to "stick it out

by Osiris 6y ago

The suggestion here is that the divorce rate is dropping because fewer people are getting married, so those that do get married are more likely to "stick it out", so to speak?

toomuchtodo 6y ago
Not the best term for folks who are content in their relationship, but yes. Once your relationship has made it past the climb phase, economically speaking, you have a lot of altitude to deal with issues once you're at cruise altitude. "Growing apart" and financial reasons are the top causes of divorce [1] (infidelity and addiction are still substantial but minority causes). Divorce is one of the most financially devastating events that can occur in your life (besides unexpected medical expenses), so there are incentives once you're married and financially successful to remain married [2]. Commitment and "sticking it out" is a topic onto itself. Love is sacrifice and marriage is a (hopefully rewarding) job (personal opinion, YMMV, this paragraph comes from several years of counseling and ~15 years of marriage). You want a cofounder who is going to work on the relationship and and stick it out with you, not one who is going to bounce whenever life gets hard. Marriage is just enough friction to not leave on a whim, but not so much friction you can't dissolve the partnership when necessary. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4012696/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4012696/ (Reasons for Divorce and Recollections of Premarital Intervention: Implications for Improving Relationship Education) [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-19/divorce-destroys-finances-of-americans-over-50-studies-show https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-19/divorce-d... (Divorce Destroys Finances of Americans Over 50, Studies Show)
- ryandrake 6y ago
  > Divorce is one of the most financially devastating events that can occur in your life (besides unexpected medical expenses) I agree with your overall comment. It should be pointed out that, other than lawyer costs, divorce tends to be zero sum. So if it is financially devastating for one party, it tends to be a financial windfall for the other. Divorces can be equitable, or they can be lopsided, but don’t net destroy much value unless the parties are spiteful and deliberately destroy their own value.
  - toomuchtodo 6y ago
    > but don’t net destroy much value unless the parties are spiteful and deliberately destroy their own value. I see this more often than one would expect. Most recently (older, but not senior, couple married for decades), one party did not agree with the other (amicable party offered 50/50, other party was spiteful), and ~$200k in value was destroyed through legal fees...to arrive at a 50/50 split. Divorces can be amicable, but the frequency of this happening is not insignificant. Without a prenuptial agreement, you're rolling the dice. Do you feel lucky?
  - Analemma_ 6y ago
    > It should be pointed out that, other than lawyer costs, divorce tends to be zero sum. What? No. After a divorce, total costs across both parties go up because resources can no longer be shared: one party needs new housing, possibly a new car, possibly needs to get their own health insurance rather than being on the other's plan, etc. Not to mention both parties have to buy anew whatever goods (cookware, television, etc.) the other person got. Even completely amicable divorce destroys a tremendous amount of wealth.
    - StillBored 6y ago
      Which actually extends to multi-generation families (and roommate situations), and sometimes explains how they survive at all. Cramming 4 working adults into a two bedroom house is a big efficiency increase. So the first thing a newly single person should be doing is looking for a roommate to share a tv and washing machine and 1/2 the cost of housing. That said, I can't think of a single case where anyone I knew in their 30-50's who got divorced did anything but go out and buy their own personal house to live in by themselves.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    This is absolutely not true for middle class people. Having to divide up households is extremely expensive and even when no money changes hands it can destroy peoples' standard of living. I watched this happen in my own extended family in just the last few years.
- jeegsy 6y ago
  > You want a cofounder who is going to work on the relationship and and stick it out with you, not one who is going to bounce whenever life gets hard. AMEN! I could not agree with this statement more. If people had a firm grasp of this concept, the divorce rate will be even lower or maybe some might even decide not to marry in the first place cos they are too self-centered for that level of sacrifice.
wombatmobile 6y ago
The need to "stick it out" is strongly influenced by parenthood. Without children, marriage is ephemeral. The need to formalise a relationship with a marriage ceremony is traditionally linked to religion. Without religion, children or a stable income, why would a person need or want to get married?
- ssully 6y ago
  It's traditionally linked to religion, but not exclusive to it. Outside of the legal status, getting married is still a way to formalize and celebrate your commitment to someone.
  - wombatmobile 6y ago
    Fair enough. That's a nice thought - two people with unstable income and a modest support network joining together for love, and making it last. Thanks for that, ssully!
  - jen20 6y ago
    This reminds me somewhat of the 'Pont des Arts' in Paris - where couples often affix padlocks to the railing and throw the key into the water as a symbol of commitment. The number of combination locks on there was quite notable last time I saw it!
    - luhn 6y ago
      The weight of the locks was damaging the bridge, so they removed them in 2015. https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/paris-love-locks-bridges-feat/index.html https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/paris-love-locks-bridges-...
- jariel 6y ago
  Why do oxygen atoms pair up? For many, there's considerably more stability in the situation for a lot of reasons. Obviously not always, but even if 'someone doesn't have children' - we're still mostly designed to behave in a social context where there are children. So a 'childless' marriage is one-step removed from the classical state, it's still pretty close.
dguaraglia 6y ago
Or the other way around: those getting married have actually thought it through, rather than feeling peer or family pressure? Who knows.
heresie-dabord 6y ago
The Sunken Cost Fallacy applies to unhappy marriages. It is often a better monetary wager to "persist" despite obvious misery. But it's a terrible choice in the psychological cost. And... you only live once. The financial devastation of divorce in a period of economic uncertainty makes marriage a very poor long-term value proposition. You can't really protect yourself from a predatory divorce in any way that will withstand a legal challenge. Younger adults seeking independence should be very wary of "marriage". Love and relationship can exist in a healthier way outside of the sunken-cost fallacy. An economic union only makes sense if the terms of rupture are clear and fair. A romantic union only makes sense if there is love. To confuse these two types of union is a huge mistake.

by Osiris 6y ago

The suggestion here is that the divorce rate is dropping because fewer people are getting married, so those that do get married are more likely to "stick it out", so to speak?

toomuchtodo 6y ago

Not the best term for folks who are content in their relationship, but yes. Once your relationship has made it past the climb phase, economically speaking, you have a lot of altitude to deal with issues once you're at cruise altitude. "Growing apart" and financial reasons are the top causes of divorce [1] (infidelity and addiction are still substantial but minority causes). Divorce is one of the most financially devastating events that can occur in your life (besides unexpected medical expenses), so there are incentives once you're married and financially successful to remain married [2]. Commitment and "sticking it out" is a topic onto itself. Love is sacrifice and marriage is a (hopefully rewarding) job (personal opinion, YMMV, this paragraph comes from several years of counseling and ~15 years of marriage). You want a cofounder who is going to work on the relationship and and stick it out with you, not one who is going to bounce whenever life gets hard. Marriage is just enough friction to not leave on a whim, but not so much friction you can't dissolve the partnership when necessary. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4012696/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4012696/ (Reasons for Divorce and Recollections of Premarital Intervention: Implications for Improving Relationship Education) [2] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-19/divorce-destroys-finances-of-americans-over-50-studies-show https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-19/divorce-d... (Divorce Destroys Finances of Americans Over 50, Studies Show)

ryandrake 6y ago
> Divorce is one of the most financially devastating events that can occur in your life (besides unexpected medical expenses) I agree with your overall comment. It should be pointed out that, other than lawyer costs, divorce tends to be zero sum. So if it is financially devastating for one party, it tends to be a financial windfall for the other. Divorces can be equitable, or they can be lopsided, but don’t net destroy much value unless the parties are spiteful and deliberately destroy their own value.
- toomuchtodo 6y ago
  > but don’t net destroy much value unless the parties are spiteful and deliberately destroy their own value. I see this more often than one would expect. Most recently (older, but not senior, couple married for decades), one party did not agree with the other (amicable party offered 50/50, other party was spiteful), and ~$200k in value was destroyed through legal fees...to arrive at a 50/50 split. Divorces can be amicable, but the frequency of this happening is not insignificant. Without a prenuptial agreement, you're rolling the dice. Do you feel lucky?
- Analemma_ 6y ago
  > It should be pointed out that, other than lawyer costs, divorce tends to be zero sum. What? No. After a divorce, total costs across both parties go up because resources can no longer be shared: one party needs new housing, possibly a new car, possibly needs to get their own health insurance rather than being on the other's plan, etc. Not to mention both parties have to buy anew whatever goods (cookware, television, etc.) the other person got. Even completely amicable divorce destroys a tremendous amount of wealth.
  - StillBored 6y ago
    Which actually extends to multi-generation families (and roommate situations), and sometimes explains how they survive at all. Cramming 4 working adults into a two bedroom house is a big efficiency increase. So the first thing a newly single person should be doing is looking for a roommate to share a tv and washing machine and 1/2 the cost of housing. That said, I can't think of a single case where anyone I knew in their 30-50's who got divorced did anything but go out and buy their own personal house to live in by themselves.
- rayiner 6y ago
  This is absolutely not true for middle class people. Having to divide up households is extremely expensive and even when no money changes hands it can destroy peoples' standard of living. I watched this happen in my own extended family in just the last few years.
jeegsy 6y ago
> You want a cofounder who is going to work on the relationship and and stick it out with you, not one who is going to bounce whenever life gets hard. AMEN! I could not agree with this statement more. If people had a firm grasp of this concept, the divorce rate will be even lower or maybe some might even decide not to marry in the first place cos they are too self-centered for that level of sacrifice.

wombatmobile 6y ago

The need to "stick it out" is strongly influenced by parenthood. Without children, marriage is ephemeral. The need to formalise a relationship with a marriage ceremony is traditionally linked to religion. Without religion, children or a stable income, why would a person need or want to get married?

ssully 6y ago
It's traditionally linked to religion, but not exclusive to it. Outside of the legal status, getting married is still a way to formalize and celebrate your commitment to someone.
- wombatmobile 6y ago
  Fair enough. That's a nice thought - two people with unstable income and a modest support network joining together for love, and making it last. Thanks for that, ssully!
- jen20 6y ago
  This reminds me somewhat of the 'Pont des Arts' in Paris - where couples often affix padlocks to the railing and throw the key into the water as a symbol of commitment. The number of combination locks on there was quite notable last time I saw it!
  - luhn 6y ago
    The weight of the locks was damaging the bridge, so they removed them in 2015. https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/paris-love-locks-bridges-feat/index.html https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/paris-love-locks-bridges-...
jariel 6y ago
Why do oxygen atoms pair up? For many, there's considerably more stability in the situation for a lot of reasons. Obviously not always, but even if 'someone doesn't have children' - we're still mostly designed to behave in a social context where there are children. So a 'childless' marriage is one-step removed from the classical state, it's still pretty close.

dguaraglia 6y ago

Or the other way around: those getting married have actually thought it through, rather than feeling peer or family pressure? Who knows.

heresie-dabord 6y ago

The Sunken Cost Fallacy applies to unhappy marriages. It is often a better monetary wager to "persist" despite obvious misery. But it's a terrible choice in the psychological cost. And... you only live once. The financial devastation of divorce in a period of economic uncertainty makes marriage a very poor long-term value proposition. You can't really protect yourself from a predatory divorce in any way that will withstand a legal challenge. Younger adults seeking independence should be very wary of "marriage". Love and relationship can exist in a healthier way outside of the sunken-cost fallacy. An economic union only makes sense if the terms of rupture are clear and fair. A romantic union only makes sense if there is love. To confuse these two types of union is a huge mistake.