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You'd end up with GarageBand. It all depends on the target audience. If you have a piece of software meant to be used by experts, it should be powerful enough t

You'd end up with GarageBand. It all depends on the target audience. If you have a piece of software meant to be used by experts, it should be powerful enough that it doesn't restrict them. I disagree that software has a tendency to dumb everything down to the lowest common denominator, simplifying and automating things is the purpose of software in the first place, but there's a huge amount of software out there that is as powerful as it needs to be. To name a few examples: Blender, DaVinci Resolve, almost everything Adobe makes, and JetBrain's IDEs.

robenkleene 6y ago
It's actually amazing how consistent the pattern is for professional creative apps, I did a study of market leaders across various industries[1] (based on the best data I could fine), and every single one supports some form of extension. Just doing a quick eye-ball glance, and I'd guess every single one of the apps I looked at also supports some form of scripting. (This is only tangentially relevant to this thread, but the iOS App Store doesn't allow extensions or scriptable apps, and I believe those rules will single-handedly assure iPad only ever has marginal impact on creative fields until those rules are removed.) 1: https://blog.robenkleene.com/2019/08/07/apples-app-stores-have-failed-creative-apps/ https://blog.robenkleene.com/2019/08/07/apples-app-stores-ha...
- packetlost 6y ago
  Anyone who works in a specialized field (or hobbyists) can tell you the iPad will never be a "pro" device for any serious work outside of art/digital painting. iOS is simply just too limiting, and Apple intentionally neuters the App store to protect the lowest common denominator from shooting themselves in the foot with malware.
  - dharma1 6y ago
    I think you could have a really good iOS DAW, I think Apple will release Logic for iPad pro at some point. But yes some of the iOS architecture is a bit weird, in terms of apps/plugins/files silos. I think the "no windows" and sandboxed apps/files paradigms are very limiting for pro work. And you really need lots of customisable keyboard shortcuts for most pro work, most iOS apps are extremely lacking in this department.
    - packetlost 6y ago
      FL Studio mobile is already quite capable, and I'm sure Logic for iPad would be great. But most DAWs make heavy use of plugins/VSTs to provide extensibility to the environment, and I highly doubt that will be supported. Why would you use an iPad over a MBP for that kind of thing? I can't imagine the touch-screen gives any sort of real advantage.
      - dharma1 6y ago
        iOS does support audio/synth plugins in the form of AUv3, it's a little bit clunky but works. I work primarily with Logic (been using it for 20 years) but the form factor of an iPad is pretty nice - it fits perfectly on music stands and laptops don't. If Macbook screens would tilt 180 degrees, all the way flat, you might be able to use them on music stands too - but they don't. If you are both playing and recording a real instrument at the same time, having the iPad on the the piano/music stand in front of you is very useful. Many people use Logic Remote on iPad on the stand, and Logic on MBP for actual recording at the same time. But not sure why you should need two devices. Touch screen is nice for some things too, like mixing or quickly toggling things.
    - arvinsim 6y ago
      I wonder how iOS Logic Pro would handle plugins.
      - dharma1 6y ago
        The same way as iOS Garageband handles AUv3 now, I assume. AUv3 plugins are meant to be able to run on both MacOS and iOS in the near future (this has caused some concern in the plugin dev community, because of different pricing models). Just in iOS they are apps you install from the app store, because everything that executes code needs to be a sandboxed app in iOS.
        arvinsim 6y ago
        Okay, I do see why it would affect pricing then if they are forced to be in the App store. I always thought that they would be handled the same way as desktop. In any case, I am still waiting for Logic Pro or Ableton to be ported to the iPad.
  - teucris 6y ago
    I have been using Ableton Live for music production for over a decade, and I can say that if it were ported to work on my iPad, I’d use it every day.
    - packetlost 6y ago
      What advantages do you think it offers over using a MBP?
      - teucris 6y ago
        1) The launch grid (I forget it’s proper name) is an increasingly common pattern in touch-based music apps; I want to touch the Ableton one. Especially in live performance. 2)The form factor of an iPad makes more sense in my music setup, in that I don’t need to haul podium or standing desk on stage as well as my instruments. 3. In producing tracks, most of my time is spent twiddling knobs, adjusting levels, etc, rather than dealing with external audio interfaces or doing fine grained, fiddly things with a mouse. But now iOS supports a mouse, so I could even do that...
        luplex 6y ago
        You should check out bitwig studio on a Surface tablet! They have had an optimized Multitouch UX mode for a few years now, and it looks pretty good.
        mastazi 6y ago
        IIRC Bitwig was actually featured in the Surface launch event (I think it was the very first generation of the Surface tablet, I might be wrong though).
      - dumpsterdiver 6y ago
        One advantage is that recording drum pad sessions would be more convenient on an iPad (you could just tap out a beat right on the screen). On the other hand, there's something to be said for high quality midi controllers that allow you to do the same. For instance, an iPad would be a great place to experiment and get an idea down, and then you could bring the idea to your other, more professionally oriented tools.
  - deeblering4 6y ago
    Since music making is art I guess I won’t disagree. There’s a large ecosystem of iOS music making apps and the iPad is actually an excellent interface for some applications, e.g. a kaoss pad. For instance have a look at what Korg and Moog have available in the app store. Or check out drambo.
BuildTheRobots 6y ago
> everything Adobe makes When Lightroom moved from v6 (iirc) to Creative Cloud a stunning amount of functionality seems to have been lost for the sake of making it idiot friendly.
- dumpsterdiver 6y ago
  I was really let down when Adobe After Effects removed the ability to randomize "effect groups" (for lack of a better name, basically a group of layered effects that creates a single, easily recognizable effect, such as "grainy movie film"). I spent so many hours playing with that thing. Don't get me wrong, I still do, but now I have to make all those tweaks manually instead of rolling the dice and hoping for a gem. Sadly, I don't find nearly as many gems as I used to when I was able to roll the dice.
  - codetrotter 6y ago
    I haven't used AE myself, but I use many of the other Adobe products and I know that many (perhaps all or close to all) of them have scripting support, so I decided to do a quick Google search for AE scripting guides. A couple of results came up, one is an official PDF about scripting AE CS6, the other a website about AE scripting. I assume most of the stuff from the AE CS6 PDF applies to AE CC as well. https://blogs.adobe.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/48/files/2012/06/After-Effects-CS6-Scripting-Guide.pdf?file=2012/06/After-Effects-CS6-Scripting-Guide.pdf https://blogs.adobe.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/48/files/2012/0... https://docs.aenhancers.com https://docs.aenhancers.com From the PDF: > When you use Adobe After Effects, you create projects, compositions, and render queue items along with all of the elements that they contain: footage, images, solids, layers, masks, effects, and properties. Each of these items, in scripting terms, is an object. This guide describes the ExtendScript objects that have been defined for After Effects projects. I think it might be worthwhile to look into whether scripting might be used in order to randomize effects and effect parameters. My immediate guess would be that yes it would be possible. I didn't look into it closely, and if it turns out to be a dead end then I apologise for that but anyways I figured I might mention this in case it might be useful to you. Also, of course since I didn't look into it closely I can not make any guesses as to how much work it would take to get the type of functionality that you want.
jaspergilley 6y ago
No, you'd end up with Fruity Loops
- aldanor 6y ago
  That would have been a fair comparison 10 years ago. These days FL Studio is no less advanced than Ableton in some regards (e.g. the mixer, etc).
- RickS 6y ago
  As a long time (15+yrs) user of both. FLS has better ergonomics in a lot of places. Especially piano roll (slide MIDI notes) and arrangement view (automation as standalone clip). Plus the razor tool, my god... FLS doesn't have a max for live equivalent, but I'd guess 90% of people don't use MFL. The edison recording workflow is hot trash IMO, or else I'd pretty readily move back to FL.
  - pizza 6y ago
    > the razor tool I really really enjoy using Ableton and have stuck with it for years now, but one of the first things that struck me once I swapped from FL Studio was how stupid it was that Ableton's piano roll lacked this fairly basic yet crucial tool..

robenkleene 6y ago

It's actually amazing how consistent the pattern is for professional creative apps, I did a study of market leaders across various industries[1] (based on the best data I could fine), and every single one supports some form of extension. Just doing a quick eye-ball glance, and I'd guess every single one of the apps I looked at also supports some form of scripting. (This is only tangentially relevant to this thread, but the iOS App Store doesn't allow extensions or scriptable apps, and I believe those rules will single-handedly assure iPad only ever has marginal impact on creative fields until those rules are removed.) 1: https://blog.robenkleene.com/2019/08/07/apples-app-stores-have-failed-creative-apps/ https://blog.robenkleene.com/2019/08/07/apples-app-stores-ha...

packetlost 6y ago
Anyone who works in a specialized field (or hobbyists) can tell you the iPad will never be a "pro" device for any serious work outside of art/digital painting. iOS is simply just too limiting, and Apple intentionally neuters the App store to protect the lowest common denominator from shooting themselves in the foot with malware.
- dharma1 6y ago
  I think you could have a really good iOS DAW, I think Apple will release Logic for iPad pro at some point. But yes some of the iOS architecture is a bit weird, in terms of apps/plugins/files silos. I think the "no windows" and sandboxed apps/files paradigms are very limiting for pro work. And you really need lots of customisable keyboard shortcuts for most pro work, most iOS apps are extremely lacking in this department.
  - packetlost 6y ago
    FL Studio mobile is already quite capable, and I'm sure Logic for iPad would be great. But most DAWs make heavy use of plugins/VSTs to provide extensibility to the environment, and I highly doubt that will be supported. Why would you use an iPad over a MBP for that kind of thing? I can't imagine the touch-screen gives any sort of real advantage.
    - dharma1 6y ago
      iOS does support audio/synth plugins in the form of AUv3, it's a little bit clunky but works. I work primarily with Logic (been using it for 20 years) but the form factor of an iPad is pretty nice - it fits perfectly on music stands and laptops don't. If Macbook screens would tilt 180 degrees, all the way flat, you might be able to use them on music stands too - but they don't. If you are both playing and recording a real instrument at the same time, having the iPad on the the piano/music stand in front of you is very useful. Many people use Logic Remote on iPad on the stand, and Logic on MBP for actual recording at the same time. But not sure why you should need two devices. Touch screen is nice for some things too, like mixing or quickly toggling things.
  - arvinsim 6y ago
    I wonder how iOS Logic Pro would handle plugins.
    - dharma1 6y ago
      The same way as iOS Garageband handles AUv3 now, I assume. AUv3 plugins are meant to be able to run on both MacOS and iOS in the near future (this has caused some concern in the plugin dev community, because of different pricing models). Just in iOS they are apps you install from the app store, because everything that executes code needs to be a sandboxed app in iOS.
      - arvinsim 6y ago
        Okay, I do see why it would affect pricing then if they are forced to be in the App store. I always thought that they would be handled the same way as desktop. In any case, I am still waiting for Logic Pro or Ableton to be ported to the iPad.
- teucris 6y ago
  I have been using Ableton Live for music production for over a decade, and I can say that if it were ported to work on my iPad, I’d use it every day.
  - packetlost 6y ago
    What advantages do you think it offers over using a MBP?
    - teucris 6y ago
      1) The launch grid (I forget it’s proper name) is an increasingly common pattern in touch-based music apps; I want to touch the Ableton one. Especially in live performance. 2)The form factor of an iPad makes more sense in my music setup, in that I don’t need to haul podium or standing desk on stage as well as my instruments. 3. In producing tracks, most of my time is spent twiddling knobs, adjusting levels, etc, rather than dealing with external audio interfaces or doing fine grained, fiddly things with a mouse. But now iOS supports a mouse, so I could even do that...
      - luplex 6y ago
        You should check out bitwig studio on a Surface tablet! They have had an optimized Multitouch UX mode for a few years now, and it looks pretty good.
        mastazi 6y ago
        IIRC Bitwig was actually featured in the Surface launch event (I think it was the very first generation of the Surface tablet, I might be wrong though).
    - dumpsterdiver 6y ago
      One advantage is that recording drum pad sessions would be more convenient on an iPad (you could just tap out a beat right on the screen). On the other hand, there's something to be said for high quality midi controllers that allow you to do the same. For instance, an iPad would be a great place to experiment and get an idea down, and then you could bring the idea to your other, more professionally oriented tools.
- deeblering4 6y ago
  Since music making is art I guess I won’t disagree. There’s a large ecosystem of iOS music making apps and the iPad is actually an excellent interface for some applications, e.g. a kaoss pad. For instance have a look at what Korg and Moog have available in the app store. Or check out drambo.

BuildTheRobots 6y ago

> everything Adobe makes When Lightroom moved from v6 (iirc) to Creative Cloud a stunning amount of functionality seems to have been lost for the sake of making it idiot friendly.

dumpsterdiver 6y ago
I was really let down when Adobe After Effects removed the ability to randomize "effect groups" (for lack of a better name, basically a group of layered effects that creates a single, easily recognizable effect, such as "grainy movie film"). I spent so many hours playing with that thing. Don't get me wrong, I still do, but now I have to make all those tweaks manually instead of rolling the dice and hoping for a gem. Sadly, I don't find nearly as many gems as I used to when I was able to roll the dice.
- codetrotter 6y ago
  I haven't used AE myself, but I use many of the other Adobe products and I know that many (perhaps all or close to all) of them have scripting support, so I decided to do a quick Google search for AE scripting guides. A couple of results came up, one is an official PDF about scripting AE CS6, the other a website about AE scripting. I assume most of the stuff from the AE CS6 PDF applies to AE CC as well. https://blogs.adobe.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/48/files/2012/06/After-Effects-CS6-Scripting-Guide.pdf?file=2012/06/After-Effects-CS6-Scripting-Guide.pdf https://blogs.adobe.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/48/files/2012/0... https://docs.aenhancers.com https://docs.aenhancers.com From the PDF: > When you use Adobe After Effects, you create projects, compositions, and render queue items along with all of the elements that they contain: footage, images, solids, layers, masks, effects, and properties. Each of these items, in scripting terms, is an object. This guide describes the ExtendScript objects that have been defined for After Effects projects. I think it might be worthwhile to look into whether scripting might be used in order to randomize effects and effect parameters. My immediate guess would be that yes it would be possible. I didn't look into it closely, and if it turns out to be a dead end then I apologise for that but anyways I figured I might mention this in case it might be useful to you. Also, of course since I didn't look into it closely I can not make any guesses as to how much work it would take to get the type of functionality that you want.

jaspergilley 6y ago

No, you'd end up with Fruity Loops

aldanor 6y ago
That would have been a fair comparison 10 years ago. These days FL Studio is no less advanced than Ableton in some regards (e.g. the mixer, etc).
RickS 6y ago
As a long time (15+yrs) user of both. FLS has better ergonomics in a lot of places. Especially piano roll (slide MIDI notes) and arrangement view (automation as standalone clip). Plus the razor tool, my god... FLS doesn't have a max for live equivalent, but I'd guess 90% of people don't use MFL. The edison recording workflow is hot trash IMO, or else I'd pretty readily move back to FL.
- pizza 6y ago
  > the razor tool I really really enjoy using Ableton and have stuck with it for years now, but one of the first things that struck me once I swapped from FL Studio was how stupid it was that Ableton's piano roll lacked this fairly basic yet crucial tool..