18 ms·

ByteDance asks federal apeals court to vacate US order forcing it to sell TikTok

60 points by sunilkumarc 6y ago

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
vmception 6y ago
Do what you gotta do
baskire 6y ago
Biden would be a fool to give the CCP even an inch. For too long they’ve taken advantage of western society without any repercussions. The equivalent is when the world pushed for peace with hitler before ww2. Even after his many aggressions. Many historians ponder the what if scenario if the world pushed back on day 1, would we of still had ww2
- delfinom 6y ago
  But Hitler is in the white house already
- ASalazarMX 6y ago
  > Biden would be a fool to give the CCP even an inch Biden should, as any sensible leader (and we are severely lacking those), ponder pros and cons, and move his pieces accordingly. This immovable attitude you suggest is nothing but extremism, and it doesn't end well.
  - baskire 6y ago
    No it’s called policy making. You show the CCP an inch and they’ll take two. The way to combat the CCP is to avoid even giving an inch. It worked in the Cold War and will work today.
    - nkozyra 6y ago
      I'm sorry, are you under the impression we refused to work with or compromise with China throughout the cold war?
      - grawprog 6y ago
        I'm guessing the parent was referring to America and the USSR during the cold war and saying America needs to take the same stance against China as they did against the USSR.
      - vopi 6y ago
        I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but I'm almost certain he is saying how it worked with the Soviet Union.
        untog 6y ago
        That wouldn’t be true either. I’m no historian but things like the SALT treaties would surely be examples of working with the USSR (and giving them “an inch” in the process).
    - ASalazarMX 6y ago
      > You show the CCP an inch and they’ll take two. Every country with the clout to do that does it, and the other countries know it. You speak of the CCP like they're evil bastards waiting to leap at your throat, but in reality USA and China have a lot in common, at least in world politics. Some Latin American countries tried to avoid giving even an inch to USA, and it didn't end well. China has done the same in Asia. USA-China rivalry is not about good and bad, it's more akin to thugs invading each other's turfs.
  - echelon 6y ago
    Nevermind the genocide, 1984 surveillance, censorship, technology stealing, punishment of the relatives of expatriated citizens, etc. China will leapfrog the West and devour our knowledge industries. If you like the salary you make today, then think about what happens when China's enormous supply of engineers working "996" gets access to the Western market. When their tech companies supplant our own. We need to put in place immediate plans to shift manufacturing to Vietnam, India, Mexico, and Africa. We should duplicate the Belt initiative, but make partner nations our allies. Have them buy into our sphere of influence rather than be indebted to China forever. We need to strengthen our allies and make this move to wean ourselves off of China together. We have so many levers at our advantage. China has to import food and energy. Trade is still denominated in USD. And they've been horrible to other nations. It won't be hard to stop their rise and replace it with our own growth if we work together with our allies. Edit: I realize there's a huge international audience here, but imagine saying these things in Shanghai. Or compare saying bad things about Xi and Trump. The West has to win. If China were free and democratic, I'd change my attitude in a second and maybe even consider moving there. I also realize the West has a whole host of problems of its own: racial inequality, widening economic prosperity gap, etc. But I do believe our democratic model is vastly superior to one that criminalizes thought. Edit: I'm sitting at -2 now, but upvotes keep pushing me back up. I expect once this falls off the front page that I'll wind up with a positive score. This always happens with my negative comments on China. No detractions or conversation, only downvotes. I think this is due to the diverse international audience. I really wish someone with the opposite perspective would chime in.
    - baskire 6y ago
      CCP has a “50 cent army” who go on social media to control the narrative. Wouldn’t surprise me if Hacker News is being targeted by them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
    - lfischer 6y ago
      One issue is that your comment sounds a bit hyperbolic. For example, China criminalizes thought? It certainly does not criminalize thought as such. About 'working together with our allies'... Some will argue the 'West' has developed a somewhat abusive relationship with a lot of the world over the last two hundred years. It's not surprising some would look favourably to a competitor, if only to take advantage of that competition to make a better deal for themselves. Finally, if other parts of the world develop a more advanced IT industry instead of China, how does that preserve Western developers salaries? Are the Chinese uniquely inclined to work long hours for low salaries? Or are you implying that the 'West' would need to prevent nations under 'our sphere of influence' to develop an IT industry so developers in the 'West' can continue to receive their current salaries?
- nkozyra 6y ago
  I think there's room for very real discussion about the merits of China's positioning in the global space right now without doing the blanket demonization that we see so often. Let's be more critical.
  - bigbubba 6y ago
    Do you mean we should be 'more critical' of the reports that China is operating genocidal concentration camps aimed at exterminating the Uyghur culture?
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      We should probably be more critical of attempts to use the Chinese atrocities against the Uyghur as a method to deflect attention from other actors' bad deeds.
      - echelon 6y ago
        > be more critical of attempts to use the Chinese atrocities against the Uyghur It's shocking to try to put any positive spin on this. Yes, the West has done bad. But this is state-sponsored genocide.
        ceejayoz 6y ago
        > It's shocking to try to put any positive spin on this. I'm not. I'm saying "What the Chinese have done to the Uyghur is bad" is a perfectly fine statement. I object to stuff like "stop whining about conditions in ICE detention when there's stuff like the Uyghur genocide happening". It's generally done in bad faith.
        echelon 6y ago
        I agree. I wasn't doing that, and I explicitly called that point out. I don't think the OP was trying to shift blame either. I also think the incoming administration will do a lot to fix it. I don't see any change in China's Uyghur strategy without strong international posturing.
asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago
It'll be interesting to see if the Biden admin has the same security concerns as the Trump admin r.e. TikTok. It's still not totally clear to me whether there was ever a real security concerns or if it was just a fig leaf for a political play. Of course, if Biden stops this process, that would not prove that the motivation was political. It could as easily be the case that declining to force the sale is a political move. Unfortunately, with the lack of transparency in the original decision making, it will be hard to ever know which is which.
- zorked 6y ago
  "Security concerns" is an excuse for protectionism. If he does the same it does not necessarily mean that the security concerns are real.
  - gruez 6y ago
    >"Security concerns" is an excuse for protectionism Is protectionism really a bad thing, especially if it's in retaliation to chinese protectionism?
    - ceejayoz 6y ago
      There's a pretty overwhelming consensus among economists that protectionism is indeed a bad thing. Tit-for-tat protectionism is also known as a trade war, which is also generally considered to be negative for both parties.
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - gruez 6y ago
        >Tit-for-tat protectionism is also known as a trade war, which is also generally considered to be negative for both parties. It is, but if you fail to retaliate you're basically advertising to other countries that they can impose protectionist measures, which benefit them and harm you. Did EU/Canada get flak for imposing retaliatory tariffs in response to trump's tarrifs?
cprecioso 6y ago
I much rather enjoy The Verge's headline: "TikTok says the Trump administration has forgotten about trying to ban it, would like to know what’s up"
cs_anon 6y ago
What is the net effect on the American economy if the order is vacated? What is the net effect on the CCP's ability to source human trafficking information to Mexican Cartels which are able to parse user metadata and identify targets of opportunity for human trafficking? These are not loaded questions, I do not know the answers and I'm wondering if anyone does.
abfan1127 6y ago
I've tried to follow this, but I still don't understand what legal standing gives the US government the authority to force a divestment? Does anyone know the statutes?
- carabiner 6y ago
  I may be a javascript programmer, but I am also an expert on virus airborne transmission, political polling, and now, US governance of corporations. Let me dig into my Wikipedia files and get back to you.
  - saurik 6y ago
    Maybe you should answer, then? Are you trying to imply that on this entire website--which includes uses who are straight up lawyers, in addition to people who at least moonlight as politicians--that no one could possibly know more than you?
- arrosenberg 6y ago
  The US Treasury Committee on Foreign Investment in the US (CFIUS) can review any foreign purchase of a US business under the guise of National Security. The power was vested first by executive order, then codified by legislation in the 80s, and was updated in 2006 and 2018.
- bigpumpkin 6y ago
  Two separate orders: 1. Issued by Trump on August 6, which uses the International Emergency Economic Powers Act. https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-addressing-threat-posed-tiktok/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-or... This executive order was stopped by a preliminary injunction issued by Judge Nichols, who based his decision on an explicit exception in the International Emergency Economic Powers Act: " (b)Exceptions to grant of authority The authority granted to the President by this section does not include the authority to regulate or prohibit, directly or indirectly— (1) any postal, telegraphic, telephonic, or other personal communication, which does not involve a transfer of anything of value; … (3) the importation from any country, or the exportation to any country, whether commercial or otherwise, regardless of format or medium of transmission, of any information or informational materials, including but not limited to, publications, films, posters, phonograph records, photographs, microfilms, microfiche, tapes, compact disks, CD ROMs, artworks, and news wire feeds. The exports exempted from regulation or prohibition by this paragraph do not include those which are otherwise controlled for export under section 4604 of this title, or under section 4605 of this title to the extent that such controls promote the nonproliferation or antiterrorism policies of the United States, or with respect to which acts are prohibited by chapter 37 of title 18; ... " 2. An executive order by Trump based on CIFUS, which is forcing a divestment of TikTok's acquisition of Musical.ly (whose founders are Chinese but operated the company in the US). If not, the order would bar TikTok from operating in the US. https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/order-regarding-acquisition-musical-ly-bytedance-ltd/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/order-regard... The part of the order that would bar TikTok from operating in the US was halted by an injuction by Judge Wendy Beetlestone. Although she did not opine on the divestiture.
jjd33 6y ago
Why is tiktok targeted at but nobody cares about Genshin Impact or League of Legends

60 points by sunilkumarc 6y ago

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

vmception 6y ago

Do what you gotta do

baskire 6y ago

Biden would be a fool to give the CCP even an inch. For too long they’ve taken advantage of western society without any repercussions. The equivalent is when the world pushed for peace with hitler before ww2. Even after his many aggressions. Many historians ponder the what if scenario if the world pushed back on day 1, would we of still had ww2

delfinom 6y ago
But Hitler is in the white house already
ASalazarMX 6y ago
> Biden would be a fool to give the CCP even an inch Biden should, as any sensible leader (and we are severely lacking those), ponder pros and cons, and move his pieces accordingly. This immovable attitude you suggest is nothing but extremism, and it doesn't end well.
- baskire 6y ago
  No it’s called policy making. You show the CCP an inch and they’ll take two. The way to combat the CCP is to avoid even giving an inch. It worked in the Cold War and will work today.
  - nkozyra 6y ago
    I'm sorry, are you under the impression we refused to work with or compromise with China throughout the cold war?
    - grawprog 6y ago
      I'm guessing the parent was referring to America and the USSR during the cold war and saying America needs to take the same stance against China as they did against the USSR.
    - vopi 6y ago
      I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but I'm almost certain he is saying how it worked with the Soviet Union.
      - untog 6y ago
        That wouldn’t be true either. I’m no historian but things like the SALT treaties would surely be examples of working with the USSR (and giving them “an inch” in the process).
  - ASalazarMX 6y ago
    > You show the CCP an inch and they’ll take two. Every country with the clout to do that does it, and the other countries know it. You speak of the CCP like they're evil bastards waiting to leap at your throat, but in reality USA and China have a lot in common, at least in world politics. Some Latin American countries tried to avoid giving even an inch to USA, and it didn't end well. China has done the same in Asia. USA-China rivalry is not about good and bad, it's more akin to thugs invading each other's turfs.
- echelon 6y ago
  Nevermind the genocide, 1984 surveillance, censorship, technology stealing, punishment of the relatives of expatriated citizens, etc. China will leapfrog the West and devour our knowledge industries. If you like the salary you make today, then think about what happens when China's enormous supply of engineers working "996" gets access to the Western market. When their tech companies supplant our own. We need to put in place immediate plans to shift manufacturing to Vietnam, India, Mexico, and Africa. We should duplicate the Belt initiative, but make partner nations our allies. Have them buy into our sphere of influence rather than be indebted to China forever. We need to strengthen our allies and make this move to wean ourselves off of China together. We have so many levers at our advantage. China has to import food and energy. Trade is still denominated in USD. And they've been horrible to other nations. It won't be hard to stop their rise and replace it with our own growth if we work together with our allies. Edit: I realize there's a huge international audience here, but imagine saying these things in Shanghai. Or compare saying bad things about Xi and Trump. The West has to win. If China were free and democratic, I'd change my attitude in a second and maybe even consider moving there. I also realize the West has a whole host of problems of its own: racial inequality, widening economic prosperity gap, etc. But I do believe our democratic model is vastly superior to one that criminalizes thought. Edit: I'm sitting at -2 now, but upvotes keep pushing me back up. I expect once this falls off the front page that I'll wind up with a positive score. This always happens with my negative comments on China. No detractions or conversation, only downvotes. I think this is due to the diverse international audience. I really wish someone with the opposite perspective would chime in.
  - baskire 6y ago
    CCP has a “50 cent army” who go on social media to control the narrative. Wouldn’t surprise me if Hacker News is being targeted by them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party
  - lfischer 6y ago
    One issue is that your comment sounds a bit hyperbolic. For example, China criminalizes thought? It certainly does not criminalize thought as such. About 'working together with our allies'... Some will argue the 'West' has developed a somewhat abusive relationship with a lot of the world over the last two hundred years. It's not surprising some would look favourably to a competitor, if only to take advantage of that competition to make a better deal for themselves. Finally, if other parts of the world develop a more advanced IT industry instead of China, how does that preserve Western developers salaries? Are the Chinese uniquely inclined to work long hours for low salaries? Or are you implying that the 'West' would need to prevent nations under 'our sphere of influence' to develop an IT industry so developers in the 'West' can continue to receive their current salaries?
nkozyra 6y ago
I think there's room for very real discussion about the merits of China's positioning in the global space right now without doing the blanket demonization that we see so often. Let's be more critical.
- bigbubba 6y ago
  Do you mean we should be 'more critical' of the reports that China is operating genocidal concentration camps aimed at exterminating the Uyghur culture?
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    We should probably be more critical of attempts to use the Chinese atrocities against the Uyghur as a method to deflect attention from other actors' bad deeds.
    - echelon 6y ago
      > be more critical of attempts to use the Chinese atrocities against the Uyghur It's shocking to try to put any positive spin on this. Yes, the West has done bad. But this is state-sponsored genocide.
      - ceejayoz 6y ago
        > It's shocking to try to put any positive spin on this. I'm not. I'm saying "What the Chinese have done to the Uyghur is bad" is a perfectly fine statement. I object to stuff like "stop whining about conditions in ICE detention when there's stuff like the Uyghur genocide happening". It's generally done in bad faith.
        echelon 6y ago
        I agree. I wasn't doing that, and I explicitly called that point out. I don't think the OP was trying to shift blame either. I also think the incoming administration will do a lot to fix it. I don't see any change in China's Uyghur strategy without strong international posturing.

asdfasgasdgasdg 6y ago

It'll be interesting to see if the Biden admin has the same security concerns as the Trump admin r.e. TikTok. It's still not totally clear to me whether there was ever a real security concerns or if it was just a fig leaf for a political play. Of course, if Biden stops this process, that would not prove that the motivation was political. It could as easily be the case that declining to force the sale is a political move. Unfortunately, with the lack of transparency in the original decision making, it will be hard to ever know which is which.

zorked 6y ago
"Security concerns" is an excuse for protectionism. If he does the same it does not necessarily mean that the security concerns are real.
- gruez 6y ago
  >"Security concerns" is an excuse for protectionism Is protectionism really a bad thing, especially if it's in retaliation to chinese protectionism?
  - ceejayoz 6y ago
    There's a pretty overwhelming consensus among economists that protectionism is indeed a bad thing. Tit-for-tat protectionism is also known as a trade war, which is also generally considered to be negative for both parties.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - gruez 6y ago
      >Tit-for-tat protectionism is also known as a trade war, which is also generally considered to be negative for both parties. It is, but if you fail to retaliate you're basically advertising to other countries that they can impose protectionist measures, which benefit them and harm you. Did EU/Canada get flak for imposing retaliatory tariffs in response to trump's tarrifs?

cprecioso 6y ago

I much rather enjoy The Verge's headline: "TikTok says the Trump administration has forgotten about trying to ban it, would like to know what’s up"

cs_anon 6y ago

What is the net effect on the American economy if the order is vacated? What is the net effect on the CCP's ability to source human trafficking information to Mexican Cartels which are able to parse user metadata and identify targets of opportunity for human trafficking? These are not loaded questions, I do not know the answers and I'm wondering if anyone does.

abfan1127 6y ago

I've tried to follow this, but I still don't understand what legal standing gives the US government the authority to force a divestment? Does anyone know the statutes?

carabiner 6y ago
I may be a javascript programmer, but I am also an expert on virus airborne transmission, political polling, and now, US governance of corporations. Let me dig into my Wikipedia files and get back to you.
- saurik 6y ago
  Maybe you should answer, then? Are you trying to imply that on this entire website--which includes uses who are straight up lawyers, in addition to people who at least moonlight as politicians--that no one could possibly know more than you?
arrosenberg 6y ago
The US Treasury Committee on Foreign Investment in the US (CFIUS) can review any foreign purchase of a US business under the guise of National Security. The power was vested first by executive order, then codified by legislation in the 80s, and was updated in 2006 and 2018.
bigpumpkin 6y ago
Two separate orders: 1. Issued by Trump on August 6, which uses the International Emergency Economic Powers Act. https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-order-addressing-threat-posed-tiktok/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-or... This executive order was stopped by a preliminary injunction issued by Judge Nichols, who based his decision on an explicit exception in the International Emergency Economic Powers Act: " (b)Exceptions to grant of authority The authority granted to the President by this section does not include the authority to regulate or prohibit, directly or indirectly— (1) any postal, telegraphic, telephonic, or other personal communication, which does not involve a transfer of anything of value; … (3) the importation from any country, or the exportation to any country, whether commercial or otherwise, regardless of format or medium of transmission, of any information or informational materials, including but not limited to, publications, films, posters, phonograph records, photographs, microfilms, microfiche, tapes, compact disks, CD ROMs, artworks, and news wire feeds. The exports exempted from regulation or prohibition by this paragraph do not include those which are otherwise controlled for export under section 4604 of this title, or under section 4605 of this title to the extent that such controls promote the nonproliferation or antiterrorism policies of the United States, or with respect to which acts are prohibited by chapter 37 of title 18; ... " 2. An executive order by Trump based on CIFUS, which is forcing a divestment of TikTok's acquisition of Musical.ly (whose founders are Chinese but operated the company in the US). If not, the order would bar TikTok from operating in the US. https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/order-regarding-acquisition-musical-ly-bytedance-ltd/ https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/order-regard... The part of the order that would bar TikTok from operating in the US was halted by an injuction by Judge Wendy Beetlestone. Although she did not opine on the divestiture.

jjd33 6y ago

Why is tiktok targeted at but nobody cares about Genshin Impact or League of Legends