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I really hope some of the limitations we are seeing with the M1 chip being from a slow roll out to the new technology and not some sign of a new wall. the bigg

I really hope some of the limitations we are seeing with the M1 chip being from a slow roll out to the new technology and not some sign of a new wall. the biggest concern to me is the on die memory. while nice from a performance perspective I do not understand how they will do this going forward for true Pro models where users want 64g or even more memory. I also await their on dGPU solution. A few users have also commented on the lack of ports and while I have not dug into this, are the controllers for these also all integrated in the chip?

capableweb 6y ago
I think you (and users like you) are simply not the target customer for Apple anymore. They used to aim for the professional market segment, where people are using multiple displays, need external GPU for creative work and other external gear, and computers that don't throttle their CPU that easily. But if the last few years of Apple's new hardware is telling us anything, is that Apple is now strictly casual-oriented, and if you're in any capacity a professional, you need to start thinking about getting a PC again.
- physicsguy 6y ago
  Bit of a problem if you want to write iPhone or Mac apps though...
  - rbanffy 6y ago
    It's a good thing their Intel machines go all the way to 28 Xeon cores and 1.5TB if RAM then...
    - physicsguy 6y ago
      Sure, and I imagine the ARM ones will in time - but it moves the MBP further along the admittedly already in progress line of it not really being a Pro machine anymore.
      - rbanffy 6y ago
        For some definitions of "Pro" ;-). Every professional group has different bottlenecks. For me, the amount of memory is more of a problem than CPU speed and I couldn't care less about GPU, although I like having more screens. These Pros would be a tight fit for me, but other people may want a faster CPU more than large memories, so everyone's mileage may vary. I suppose the next generation will bump it up to 32 or 64GB, so they may be more comfortable for me. One thing I'd love would be more low-power cores. I don't do heavy lifting on VMs and, because of that, these cores seem like perfect for that little MySQL container. Also, the lower the single-thread performance, the sooner you'll see concurrency issues.
- ericmay 6y ago
  Overreaction much? Last I checked the vast majority of their devices are sold with Intel chipsets. So if having multiple displays while running your MacBook Air for "professional work" is a deal-breaker then you can just get a different Mac. M2 chips and later will obviously support multiple external displays. Not everyone needs to be an early adopter. Sheesh. As a "professional", getting a PC is a deal breaker. It's not a Mac. It doesn't run macOS. That's the whole point.
  - capableweb 6y ago
    No overreaction, just sharing what I'm seeing in the European film industry already. Film professionals couldn't care less if it's Mac or PC, as long as it runs the software they want to run, that it won't make them lose their mind with performance issues and won't cost similarly to a semi-fancy car. Apple currently is making it clear that they are not actively targeting those people anymore (max 16GB of memory, really?) and professionals are finally noticing, which is why in the last few years you see more and more professionals moving back to PC after being on macOS for many years.
    - ericmay 6y ago
      > (max 16GB of memory, really?) Again, this is the first iteration of the M1 chip. Again, you can buy a different Mac and spec it out to 32GB if you have that requirement. I'm a professional. I'm "noticing". I'm still buying a Mac.
    - dev_tty01 6y ago
      Apple hasn't made anything clear. These are entry level devices. They don't have anything to do with the customers you describe. Some other variants of Apple Silicon will address those customers. No data available yet to draw any conclusions.
- NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
  >But if the last few years of Apple's new hardware is telling us anything, is that Apple is now strictly casual-oriented, and if you're in any capacity a professional, you need to start thinking about getting a PC again. Was the new Mac Pro not 'professional' enough for you? Up to 28 core CPU, 1.5 TB of RAM, capable of driving six 6K monitors and so on? Even the iMac Pro is absurdly overpowered for 'casual' usage.
  - dexterdog 6y ago
    It's plenty professional, just not portable. The problem is that just like with the iPhone, the pro line has just become the high class line so people buy it for the bling factor. They need to make a dev or nerd line or whatever marketing decides to call it. This would be more configurable and not thin and light just for the sake of being thinner and light that last year's model.
    - Schiendelman 6y ago
      What PC are you thinking about that is both powerful and portable?
    - hyperdimension 6y ago
      > just not portable That's because the base model doesn't come with Apple Wheel. They're only 700$.
      - capableweb 6y ago
        This is the third time I read this comment and lightly smiled. Wasn't until now that it occurred to me that "Apple Wheel" might actually be a real product. Lo and behold, it's 4 cart wheels that retails for $699, I'm not even joking. https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MX572ZM/A/apple-mac-pro-wheels-kit https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MX572ZM/A/apple-mac-pro-w...
        hyperdimension 6y ago
d3nj4l 6y ago
> are the controllers for these also all integrated in the chip? Yes, in the unveiling video they showed the thunderbolt controller as one of the things they'd put in the SoC. I'm not sure if this is reflected in the documentation, but in the video itself it was pretty clear.
warp 6y ago
I wonder if it would be feasible to release a product with different classes of memory. So you'd have the 8GB or 16GB in the M1 chip + an extra 48 GB elsewhere one the board. Obviously the M1 memory would be faster, but e.g. Xbox series X has 16GB memory of which 10GB is considerably faster than the remaining 6GB. So I guess it becomes a software challenge then... can they make the necessary changes to MacOS to manage different classes of memory efficiently?
- rbanffy 6y ago
  Xeon Phi's had that - up to 16GB of ridiculously fast memory in-package and the ability to drive external memory at more pedestrian speeds. IIRC the 16GB could be configured as an "L4 cache" for the rest of the memory. I assume the same approach could be taken. OTOH, it shouldn't be too complicated to just add more memory dies to the package as higher densities become available.
anentropic 6y ago
Yes the Thunderbolt controller etc are integrated into the SoC of the M1 Yesterday's models just replace the Air and lowest spec Pro Seems likely that next year or so there would be an "M1X" chip with more RAM to support the higher end Pro models - the 16" and rumoured 14", hopefully both with four ports
gameswithgo 6y ago
32gb l4 cache + however much normal ram?
hocuspocus 6y ago
> I also await their on dGPU solution. Genuine question from someone who doesn't know hardware architecture that well: It seems clear that we'll see non-PoP variants of their SoC's, for instance to support multiple RAM configurations in the high-end models. However, at this point, if Apple's own GPU scales well, should we except 3rd party dGPU at all? Can't Apple ship SoCs with multiple times the M1 core count and graphics units, package 8 or 16GB of fast memory (GDDR or HBM), and call it a day? They're going to push their own software stack anyway, why bother with AMD GPUs fabbed on a previous generation TSMC process.
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  Dedicated/external GPUs are 10x as powerful as internal ones. Apple doesn't have a miracle technology that can make a fanless 2080 Ti. AMD and Nvidia arent stopping improving cards just because M1 exists
  - hocuspocus 6y ago
    I haven't said anything about Apple GPU architecture being a miracle fanless technology. Right now they ship SoCs with 7 or 8 graphics units, what happens when they put 64 of them? Look at the architecture of AMD SoCs in the PS5 and Xbox. Obviously Apple cannot get away with unified memory in the higher-end machines, but what would make them prefer an AMD dGPU when it seems they have everything they need internally. Again, assuming the GPU scales well.
    - thomaslord 6y ago
      If you want GPU performance to match a dedicated GPU, you can't fit it in a Macbook (or any Mac except the Mac Pro, for that matter). Even if the M1's graphics units only used 50% as much power as an equivalently-powerful Nvidia or AMD dedicated GPU, putting enough graphics power onboard to match even a midrange GPU would immediately overwhelm the cooling abilities of the computer. Apple could absolutely choose to make better cooling, but they've demonstrated time and time again that they'd rather just let thermal throttling happen and trust that their users will continue to buy a product that doesn't live up to its spec sheet's promises. Any cooling that could support dedicated-GPU-level performance would require making the chassis dramatically thicker - take a look at some of the gaming laptops out there today with desktop-class GPUs, they can get be like 2 inches thick in pursuit of cooling good enough to support a full-power GPU without massive throttling.
gameswithgo 6y ago
i dont think the memory is on die, its just chiplets on the same substrate ala ryzen.
- gumby 6y ago
  This is correct. One distinction is that AFAICT they are not stacked, a decision that improves the thermals immensely.

capableweb 6y ago

I think you (and users like you) are simply not the target customer for Apple anymore. They used to aim for the professional market segment, where people are using multiple displays, need external GPU for creative work and other external gear, and computers that don't throttle their CPU that easily. But if the last few years of Apple's new hardware is telling us anything, is that Apple is now strictly casual-oriented, and if you're in any capacity a professional, you need to start thinking about getting a PC again.

physicsguy 6y ago
Bit of a problem if you want to write iPhone or Mac apps though...
- rbanffy 6y ago
  It's a good thing their Intel machines go all the way to 28 Xeon cores and 1.5TB if RAM then...
  - physicsguy 6y ago
    Sure, and I imagine the ARM ones will in time - but it moves the MBP further along the admittedly already in progress line of it not really being a Pro machine anymore.
    - rbanffy 6y ago
      For some definitions of "Pro" ;-). Every professional group has different bottlenecks. For me, the amount of memory is more of a problem than CPU speed and I couldn't care less about GPU, although I like having more screens. These Pros would be a tight fit for me, but other people may want a faster CPU more than large memories, so everyone's mileage may vary. I suppose the next generation will bump it up to 32 or 64GB, so they may be more comfortable for me. One thing I'd love would be more low-power cores. I don't do heavy lifting on VMs and, because of that, these cores seem like perfect for that little MySQL container. Also, the lower the single-thread performance, the sooner you'll see concurrency issues.
ericmay 6y ago
Overreaction much? Last I checked the vast majority of their devices are sold with Intel chipsets. So if having multiple displays while running your MacBook Air for "professional work" is a deal-breaker then you can just get a different Mac. M2 chips and later will obviously support multiple external displays. Not everyone needs to be an early adopter. Sheesh. As a "professional", getting a PC is a deal breaker. It's not a Mac. It doesn't run macOS. That's the whole point.
- capableweb 6y ago
  No overreaction, just sharing what I'm seeing in the European film industry already. Film professionals couldn't care less if it's Mac or PC, as long as it runs the software they want to run, that it won't make them lose their mind with performance issues and won't cost similarly to a semi-fancy car. Apple currently is making it clear that they are not actively targeting those people anymore (max 16GB of memory, really?) and professionals are finally noticing, which is why in the last few years you see more and more professionals moving back to PC after being on macOS for many years.
  - ericmay 6y ago
    > (max 16GB of memory, really?) Again, this is the first iteration of the M1 chip. Again, you can buy a different Mac and spec it out to 32GB if you have that requirement. I'm a professional. I'm "noticing". I'm still buying a Mac.
  - dev_tty01 6y ago
    Apple hasn't made anything clear. These are entry level devices. They don't have anything to do with the customers you describe. Some other variants of Apple Silicon will address those customers. No data available yet to draw any conclusions.
NovemberWhiskey 6y ago
>But if the last few years of Apple's new hardware is telling us anything, is that Apple is now strictly casual-oriented, and if you're in any capacity a professional, you need to start thinking about getting a PC again. Was the new Mac Pro not 'professional' enough for you? Up to 28 core CPU, 1.5 TB of RAM, capable of driving six 6K monitors and so on? Even the iMac Pro is absurdly overpowered for 'casual' usage.
- dexterdog 6y ago
  It's plenty professional, just not portable. The problem is that just like with the iPhone, the pro line has just become the high class line so people buy it for the bling factor. They need to make a dev or nerd line or whatever marketing decides to call it. This would be more configurable and not thin and light just for the sake of being thinner and light that last year's model.
  - Schiendelman 6y ago
    What PC are you thinking about that is both powerful and portable?
  - hyperdimension 6y ago
    > just not portable That's because the base model doesn't come with Apple Wheel. They're only 700$.
    - capableweb 6y ago
      This is the third time I read this comment and lightly smiled. Wasn't until now that it occurred to me that "Apple Wheel" might actually be a real product. Lo and behold, it's 4 cart wheels that retails for $699, I'm not even joking. https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MX572ZM/A/apple-mac-pro-wheels-kit https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MX572ZM/A/apple-mac-pro-w...
      - hyperdimension 6y ago

d3nj4l 6y ago

> are the controllers for these also all integrated in the chip? Yes, in the unveiling video they showed the thunderbolt controller as one of the things they'd put in the SoC. I'm not sure if this is reflected in the documentation, but in the video itself it was pretty clear.

warp 6y ago

I wonder if it would be feasible to release a product with different classes of memory. So you'd have the 8GB or 16GB in the M1 chip + an extra 48 GB elsewhere one the board. Obviously the M1 memory would be faster, but e.g. Xbox series X has 16GB memory of which 10GB is considerably faster than the remaining 6GB. So I guess it becomes a software challenge then... can they make the necessary changes to MacOS to manage different classes of memory efficiently?

rbanffy 6y ago
Xeon Phi's had that - up to 16GB of ridiculously fast memory in-package and the ability to drive external memory at more pedestrian speeds. IIRC the 16GB could be configured as an "L4 cache" for the rest of the memory. I assume the same approach could be taken. OTOH, it shouldn't be too complicated to just add more memory dies to the package as higher densities become available.

anentropic 6y ago

Yes the Thunderbolt controller etc are integrated into the SoC of the M1 Yesterday's models just replace the Air and lowest spec Pro Seems likely that next year or so there would be an "M1X" chip with more RAM to support the higher end Pro models - the 16" and rumoured 14", hopefully both with four ports

gameswithgo 6y ago

32gb l4 cache + however much normal ram?

hocuspocus 6y ago

> I also await their on dGPU solution. Genuine question from someone who doesn't know hardware architecture that well: It seems clear that we'll see non-PoP variants of their SoC's, for instance to support multiple RAM configurations in the high-end models. However, at this point, if Apple's own GPU scales well, should we except 3rd party dGPU at all? Can't Apple ship SoCs with multiple times the M1 core count and graphics units, package 8 or 16GB of fast memory (GDDR or HBM), and call it a day? They're going to push their own software stack anyway, why bother with AMD GPUs fabbed on a previous generation TSMC process.

alisonkisk 6y ago
Dedicated/external GPUs are 10x as powerful as internal ones. Apple doesn't have a miracle technology that can make a fanless 2080 Ti. AMD and Nvidia arent stopping improving cards just because M1 exists
- hocuspocus 6y ago
  I haven't said anything about Apple GPU architecture being a miracle fanless technology. Right now they ship SoCs with 7 or 8 graphics units, what happens when they put 64 of them? Look at the architecture of AMD SoCs in the PS5 and Xbox. Obviously Apple cannot get away with unified memory in the higher-end machines, but what would make them prefer an AMD dGPU when it seems they have everything they need internally. Again, assuming the GPU scales well.
  - thomaslord 6y ago
    If you want GPU performance to match a dedicated GPU, you can't fit it in a Macbook (or any Mac except the Mac Pro, for that matter). Even if the M1's graphics units only used 50% as much power as an equivalently-powerful Nvidia or AMD dedicated GPU, putting enough graphics power onboard to match even a midrange GPU would immediately overwhelm the cooling abilities of the computer. Apple could absolutely choose to make better cooling, but they've demonstrated time and time again that they'd rather just let thermal throttling happen and trust that their users will continue to buy a product that doesn't live up to its spec sheet's promises. Any cooling that could support dedicated-GPU-level performance would require making the chassis dramatically thicker - take a look at some of the gaming laptops out there today with desktop-class GPUs, they can get be like 2 inches thick in pursuit of cooling good enough to support a full-power GPU without massive throttling.

gameswithgo 6y ago

i dont think the memory is on die, its just chiplets on the same substrate ala ryzen.

gumby 6y ago
This is correct. One distinction is that AFAICT they are not stacked, a decision that improves the thermals immensely.