4 ms·

I'm very confused about the overall attitude and trends at the moment when it comes to higher education especially postgraduate education and academia. On one h

by st1x7 6y ago

I'm very confused about the overall attitude and trends at the moment when it comes to higher education especially postgraduate education and academia. On one hand there seems to be a certain amount of disillusionment with universities, degrees, getting a PhD and working in academia. At the same time the education requirements for jobs seem to be inflated and way more jobs require an MSc or a PhD these days. By the way, the article is from 2013.

SiempreViernes 6y ago
Yeah, adding they year to the title would be a good idea.
kortilla 6y ago
It helps to separate the PhD from the general academia angst because it’s in an entirely different category. The complaints about the lower degrees are usually about value for cost, remote learning, etc. This is easily compatible with the fact that employers want employees to have degrees. It’s even one of the primary reasons the prices have been able to go up so much for a degree (economic value). The PhD programs, research, and tenure track academia in general is an entirely different beast with some pretty fundamental flaws. Very few companies require PhDs so the job opportunities for a PhD student who wants a position that requires one are scarce. I got my PhD from a top 10 CS research university and it was shocking how much competition the graduates had to get a tenure track position at some third rate university when they graduated. Publications in top journals and even a solid post doc just got you the opportunity to fight 8 other equally qualified candidates for a single slot. The professors do not emphasize enough that tenure track research faculty is nothing more than a fantasy for 90% of the graduates, and that’s ignoring the 50% of PhD students who dropped out before finishing.
- atq2119 6y ago
  > it was shocking how much competition the graduates had to get a tenure track position at some third rate university when they graduated Counterpoint: assuming a stable size of universities, the average number per professor of supervised doctoral students who receive tenure is 1. How many doctoral students does a professor have on average over the course of their career? By that point, the situation really shouldn't be surprising. It only seems that way because the 20th century saw a period of extremely fast growth of universities, and societal expectations have a lot of inertia.
  - bananaface 6y ago
    It's not surprising when you're wise enough to realise this, but I think it's a deceptive promise sold to incoming students. You hear so many horror stories from people who didn't realise they were signing their life away when they signed. It seems very predatory to me.
- michaelmior 6y ago
  I'm not sure when you got your degree but now (well, at least pre-COVID) there are often more openings than can be filled. (Speaking of CS here.) Anyone I know who graduated in a similar time frame as me didn't have too much difficulty getting a faculty position somewhere (without postdoc).
probably_wrong 6y ago
I think it's the HN bubble: happy people don't write "I love my work" posts, and if they did they wouldn't be posted here. "Academia sucks", on the other hand, is the type of post that reinforces the idea and makes it to the frontpage. There is also the problem of people conflating "Academia" with "Academia in the US".
- sabas123 6y ago
  Literally every community which have good ties with academia underlines this point so strongly that we can't ignore it as just a bubble
- dijksterhuis 6y ago
  I'm a PhD student in the UK. I love most of my work. I also think academia sucks (I don't love those parts). Life ain't binary.
Traster 6y ago
I can't talk about the US, but in the UK there's very good reason for disillusionment. Since 1990 there are 5x as many people getting university degrees, and the rate at which those students get 1st class degrees has increased by 4x. That is to say, the number of people able to get degrees has sky rocketed, and the classification of their degrees has also sky rocketed over the past 30 years. So we're left with the obvious question: Do we suddenly have 20x as many students capable of getting a first class degree when nothing in the rest of our data suggests a sudden rise in education standards or economic improvement? Because your first class degree at a UK university is worht 1/20th of what a first class degree at a UK university was in 1990.

by st1x7 6y ago

SiempreViernes 6y ago

Yeah, adding they year to the title would be a good idea.

kortilla 6y ago

It helps to separate the PhD from the general academia angst because it’s in an entirely different category. The complaints about the lower degrees are usually about value for cost, remote learning, etc. This is easily compatible with the fact that employers want employees to have degrees. It’s even one of the primary reasons the prices have been able to go up so much for a degree (economic value). The PhD programs, research, and tenure track academia in general is an entirely different beast with some pretty fundamental flaws. Very few companies require PhDs so the job opportunities for a PhD student who wants a position that requires one are scarce. I got my PhD from a top 10 CS research university and it was shocking how much competition the graduates had to get a tenure track position at some third rate university when they graduated. Publications in top journals and even a solid post doc just got you the opportunity to fight 8 other equally qualified candidates for a single slot. The professors do not emphasize enough that tenure track research faculty is nothing more than a fantasy for 90% of the graduates, and that’s ignoring the 50% of PhD students who dropped out before finishing.

atq2119 6y ago
> it was shocking how much competition the graduates had to get a tenure track position at some third rate university when they graduated Counterpoint: assuming a stable size of universities, the average number per professor of supervised doctoral students who receive tenure is 1. How many doctoral students does a professor have on average over the course of their career? By that point, the situation really shouldn't be surprising. It only seems that way because the 20th century saw a period of extremely fast growth of universities, and societal expectations have a lot of inertia.
- bananaface 6y ago
  It's not surprising when you're wise enough to realise this, but I think it's a deceptive promise sold to incoming students. You hear so many horror stories from people who didn't realise they were signing their life away when they signed. It seems very predatory to me.
michaelmior 6y ago
I'm not sure when you got your degree but now (well, at least pre-COVID) there are often more openings than can be filled. (Speaking of CS here.) Anyone I know who graduated in a similar time frame as me didn't have too much difficulty getting a faculty position somewhere (without postdoc).

probably_wrong 6y ago

I think it's the HN bubble: happy people don't write "I love my work" posts, and if they did they wouldn't be posted here. "Academia sucks", on the other hand, is the type of post that reinforces the idea and makes it to the frontpage. There is also the problem of people conflating "Academia" with "Academia in the US".

sabas123 6y ago
Literally every community which have good ties with academia underlines this point so strongly that we can't ignore it as just a bubble
dijksterhuis 6y ago
I'm a PhD student in the UK. I love most of my work. I also think academia sucks (I don't love those parts). Life ain't binary.

Traster 6y ago

I can't talk about the US, but in the UK there's very good reason for disillusionment. Since 1990 there are 5x as many people getting university degrees, and the rate at which those students get 1st class degrees has increased by 4x. That is to say, the number of people able to get degrees has sky rocketed, and the classification of their degrees has also sky rocketed over the past 30 years. So we're left with the obvious question: Do we suddenly have 20x as many students capable of getting a first class degree when nothing in the rest of our data suggests a sudden rise in education standards or economic improvement? Because your first class degree at a UK university is worht 1/20th of what a first class degree at a UK university was in 1990.