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> I also haven't used Debian since. I stopped using Debian when its ridiculous "free" purely ideological approach to software actually caused me issues. I nee

> I also haven't used Debian since. I stopped using Debian when its ridiculous "free" purely ideological approach to software actually caused me issues. I needed to install Debian on a relatively old laptop a few years ago. It had all "mainstream" hardware. It's WiFi adapter was an Intel one (and a very common/popular one at the time), but it was one that wasn't open source. How did Debian approach this? It's installer gave me a not very subtle passive aggressive message telling me that although they have the drivers for the device, it was not going to install them... because the ISO did not include them. With no working WiFi, it of course could not connect to the internet to download them! Worse still, turns out that even if it had connected to the internet it wouldn't have downloaded and installed them anyway. I found this out because I managed to use an Ethernet connection. Completely stupid and frustrating and it felt like I was being blamed as if it was my fault. Installed Ubuntu, included the drivers, connected to WiFi during the installation. I have not used Debian on anything since.

DJHenk 6y ago
You might already know this, but there are Debian versions that address this situation: https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/ https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images... I like it that that try to focus on a completely free version, as that is what they stand for and why a lot of people respect them, while at the same time being realistic about the real world problems that people face.
- mrslave 6y ago
  It is funny though. Debian builds a great product with an unpopular/impractical ideology (not a judgement). Ubuntu comes along, adds a little on top, throws out the ideological constraint, and achieves great market success! And Debian is great. We might take it for granted now, but 2 decades ago while everyone else was fiddling with their own package dependencies with RPM (pre-Yum) Debian had amazing package management with builds for all sorts of amazing architectures. They were leaders both in thought and execution. I tried (but failed) to influence an employer to invest more in Debian; instead they went with SuSe which eventually caused a few small problems. Now Debian & Ubuntu are booming.
smcl 6y ago
The problem is that they aren't very clear about what you might be missing with the standard Debian image you get when you click the big "Getting Debian" link at the top of their homepage. I imagine that many people such as yourself were put off by the fact that they downloaded Debian and thought it was crippled out of the box. They do provide "nonfree" install media which include firmware blobs that many people need to get their wifi up - https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-in.... But it's not easy to get there (I google "Debian nonfree") and it has "unofficial" in the URL which I imagine doesn't help things either. I understand that Ubuntu is meant to be the user-friendly Debian-based distro and that Debian is meant to be Free Software first and foremost. I just wish that this nonfree install image was a bit more official and easier for users to discover. edit: oops, I should refresh before hitting "reply" I didn't see the other answer
- mehrdadn 6y ago
  Kind of off-topic, but do you know why they call drivers "firmware"? I thought "firmware" was the code loaded internally in the hardware, and "driver" was the software in the OS that interacted with it (to "drive" it to do what it needs)? This confused me for a long time—I used to think "I've already updated all the firmware on all of my laptop's components, so I don't need extra bundled firmware" at some point, until I realized that's not what they talked about at all. Any idea why they call their drivers "firmware"? I feel like I might not be the only person who's been misled by this in the past.
  - smcl 6y ago
    I think your original understanding is correct - what we're calling "drivers" are run by the host OS and CPU to interact with a peripheral over PCI, USB, SPI, OWI, whatever. And "firmware" is some special software required by the device itself to run (could be some ARM or MIPS binary or whatever arch is used by CPU(s) on the device). I guess that some peripherals have firmware on non-volatile storage while others require it provided by the host when they're initialized. So the "firmware" I required for my Thinkpad's wifi to work (and which was included in that Debian nonfree image) is this: https://wiki.debian.org/iwlwifi https://wiki.debian.org/iwlwifi update: actually on that Debian wiki there's a page called "Firmware" which explains things well https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware
lloydatkinson 6y ago
Somehow doesn't surprise me I've upset the neck beards

DJHenk 6y ago

You might already know this, but there are Debian versions that address this situation: https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images-including-firmware/ https://cdimage.debian.org/images/unofficial/non-free/images... I like it that that try to focus on a completely free version, as that is what they stand for and why a lot of people respect them, while at the same time being realistic about the real world problems that people face.

mrslave 6y ago
It is funny though. Debian builds a great product with an unpopular/impractical ideology (not a judgement). Ubuntu comes along, adds a little on top, throws out the ideological constraint, and achieves great market success! And Debian is great. We might take it for granted now, but 2 decades ago while everyone else was fiddling with their own package dependencies with RPM (pre-Yum) Debian had amazing package management with builds for all sorts of amazing architectures. They were leaders both in thought and execution. I tried (but failed) to influence an employer to invest more in Debian; instead they went with SuSe which eventually caused a few small problems. Now Debian & Ubuntu are booming.

smcl 6y ago

The problem is that they aren't very clear about what you might be missing with the standard Debian image you get when you click the big "Getting Debian" link at the top of their homepage. I imagine that many people such as yourself were put off by the fact that they downloaded Debian and thought it was crippled out of the box. They do provide "nonfree" install media which include firmware blobs that many people need to get their wifi up - https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-in.... But it's not easy to get there (I google "Debian nonfree") and it has "unofficial" in the URL which I imagine doesn't help things either. I understand that Ubuntu is meant to be the user-friendly Debian-based distro and that Debian is meant to be Free Software first and foremost. I just wish that this nonfree install image was a bit more official and easier for users to discover. edit: oops, I should refresh before hitting "reply" I didn't see the other answer

mehrdadn 6y ago
Kind of off-topic, but do you know why they call drivers "firmware"? I thought "firmware" was the code loaded internally in the hardware, and "driver" was the software in the OS that interacted with it (to "drive" it to do what it needs)? This confused me for a long time—I used to think "I've already updated all the firmware on all of my laptop's components, so I don't need extra bundled firmware" at some point, until I realized that's not what they talked about at all. Any idea why they call their drivers "firmware"? I feel like I might not be the only person who's been misled by this in the past.
- smcl 6y ago
  I think your original understanding is correct - what we're calling "drivers" are run by the host OS and CPU to interact with a peripheral over PCI, USB, SPI, OWI, whatever. And "firmware" is some special software required by the device itself to run (could be some ARM or MIPS binary or whatever arch is used by CPU(s) on the device). I guess that some peripherals have firmware on non-volatile storage while others require it provided by the host when they're initialized. So the "firmware" I required for my Thinkpad's wifi to work (and which was included in that Debian nonfree image) is this: https://wiki.debian.org/iwlwifi https://wiki.debian.org/iwlwifi update: actually on that Debian wiki there's a page called "Firmware" which explains things well https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware

lloydatkinson 6y ago

Somehow doesn't surprise me I've upset the neck beards