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> I'm not trying to give voice to every gamer, just pointing out that there's more to gaming than games that rely on this crap, and that some of us accept that.

> I'm not trying to give voice to every gamer, just pointing out that there's more to gaming than games that rely on this crap, and that some of us accept that. That wasn't what I was taking umbrage with. You dismissing the concerns as absurd was what I was taking umbrage with. > Life is full of quasi-moral choices like this. Yes understand this. > You can choose to support hardware that supports your platform. You can choose to buy local rather than carrots flown in from South Africa; wtf Waitrose! You can donate your time to helping people hoping it makes the world slightly better. I don't wish to be rude but you are being so overly dramatic. > Not playing games that go out of their way to force me to run Windows is my moral stand here. I get that it's not for you, and it's not for a lot of other Windows gamers, and it might even be stopping the Year of the Linux Desktop... The dramatic language aside. Yes that is your choice. However a lot of games at the moment require this, so proton as good as it is won't run these games and that is a deal breaker for many people. Whether or not you continue with your moral crusade will make no difference to the current reality. As for the year of the Linux desktop. It is never going to happen. I've been using alternative Operating systems such as Lnux for about 17 years. I've tried 21 XFCE, Gnome, KDE, Cinnamon, mucked about with windows managers and there is always some really irritating bugs that never get resolved and have been there for years on end. That combined with almost every Linux distribution kinda breaking itself as time goes on and requiring you to drop to the terminal to fix it (I have used many distros over the years). > But my view is this too shall pass. Trusted Clients are bound to fail, as they have again and again and again. They're running out of options. Engines with action integrity checks are the future. And e-sports will move to the cloud because that just makes sense for everybody involved. I doubt it. It is a good enough solution. These cloud based services have bunch of input latency which is just unacceptable. Many of the large games before covid happened over lan in stadiums, once covid is over we will go back to this. I suspect with esports I think cheating will be discovered by observing replays at the higher levels. (this already happens in the speed running community).

oliwarner 6y ago
My dismissal of the original statement is well explained. While some games with some anti-cheats won't work on Linux, the vast majority work well. There are options for viable future anti-cheats on Linux, between recreating what's been done for Windows, simple reputation systems, community moderation and actual event audits. The reason they'll be contemplated is the continued failure of trusted clients. And the significance of the 13 [of top 100] games that currently don't work is entirely down to player preferences. Dramatics: you seem to be a person that understands the problem, understands individuality, but refuses to paint as more than a binary outcome. There are already a million gamers playing games on Linux, there's clearly room in the middle, and positive road to the future. E-sports: the elite will continue to happen at real venues, but I think there's going to be significant growth in the every-day teams. Think five-a-side pub teams. They're not going to rent a £15k/d venue like Multiplay can, they're going to play online and need a way to ensure that all players are playing with the same tools. A cloud-rendered system does that and it'll only become more feasible in time. Yes, there's higher latency, but it's a known latency.
- forest_dweller 6y ago
  > My dismissal of the original statement is well explained. No it missed the point. You can't play the game currently. > Dramatics: you seem to be a person that understands the problem, understands individuality, but refuses to paint as more than a binary outcome. There are already a million gamers playing games on Linux, there's clearly room in the middle, and positive road to the future. I also understand what is true and what isn't. With the dramatics I was more talking about the high minded attitude about saving the world by buying the right carrots, or using linux. I used to cycle a lot and many cyclists on there thought they could save the world by everyone cycling everywhere, while buying foreign kit that needed to be shipped over in a container. As for the number of gamers. "Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics". Saying there is a million gamers sounds like there is a lot. It isn't. Those million gamers are like 1-2% of the whole market at best (you can look up the steam stats which I think are representative). I game (partially) on Linux and the extra hoops I have to go through to get a game running isn't worth the extra effort when I can just reboot into Windows (which takes seconds with modern hardware). > E-sports: the elite will continue to happen at real venues, but I think there's going to be significant growth in the every-day teams. Think five-a-side pub teams. They're not going to rent a £15k/d venue like Multiplay can, they're going to play online and need a way to ensure that all players are playing with the same tools. Never said a pub-team would be playing at a 15k venue (btw local pub footie teams in the UK do sometimes play in the big stadiums). Different levels of competition have a different levels of scrutiny over the process. If I play pool at the local pool club against another team, we don't have a umpire on board. It is done by mostly by gentleman's agreement and each team captain not causing a fuss. If you see a match on a TV they will have an umpire/referee. > A cloud-rendered system does that and it'll only become more feasible in time. Yes, there's higher latency, but it's a known latency. The system they have currently is more than good enough and have none of the drawbacks of your proposed system. The latency problem is never going away with cloud based rendering because it is limited by physics. Gamers have rejected Stadia for the very problems I described (it was wildly mocked for it) and other services are expensive when you can buy a decent gaming PC for less than £1000. Most of them don't care about Linux, they want to play games. On my discord (which has a lot of programmers and people in IT) I am the only person that uses it regularly. I've worked at quite a few places as well (I am a contractor) and there might be another Linux user there. This experience matches up with every other statistic about Linux usage. We are very much in the minority.

oliwarner 6y ago

My dismissal of the original statement is well explained. While some games with some anti-cheats won't work on Linux, the vast majority work well. There are options for viable future anti-cheats on Linux, between recreating what's been done for Windows, simple reputation systems, community moderation and actual event audits. The reason they'll be contemplated is the continued failure of trusted clients. And the significance of the 13 [of top 100] games that currently don't work is entirely down to player preferences. Dramatics: you seem to be a person that understands the problem, understands individuality, but refuses to paint as more than a binary outcome. There are already a million gamers playing games on Linux, there's clearly room in the middle, and positive road to the future. E-sports: the elite will continue to happen at real venues, but I think there's going to be significant growth in the every-day teams. Think five-a-side pub teams. They're not going to rent a £15k/d venue like Multiplay can, they're going to play online and need a way to ensure that all players are playing with the same tools. A cloud-rendered system does that and it'll only become more feasible in time. Yes, there's higher latency, but it's a known latency.

forest_dweller 6y ago
> My dismissal of the original statement is well explained. No it missed the point. You can't play the game currently. > Dramatics: you seem to be a person that understands the problem, understands individuality, but refuses to paint as more than a binary outcome. There are already a million gamers playing games on Linux, there's clearly room in the middle, and positive road to the future. I also understand what is true and what isn't. With the dramatics I was more talking about the high minded attitude about saving the world by buying the right carrots, or using linux. I used to cycle a lot and many cyclists on there thought they could save the world by everyone cycling everywhere, while buying foreign kit that needed to be shipped over in a container. As for the number of gamers. "Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics". Saying there is a million gamers sounds like there is a lot. It isn't. Those million gamers are like 1-2% of the whole market at best (you can look up the steam stats which I think are representative). I game (partially) on Linux and the extra hoops I have to go through to get a game running isn't worth the extra effort when I can just reboot into Windows (which takes seconds with modern hardware). > E-sports: the elite will continue to happen at real venues, but I think there's going to be significant growth in the every-day teams. Think five-a-side pub teams. They're not going to rent a £15k/d venue like Multiplay can, they're going to play online and need a way to ensure that all players are playing with the same tools. Never said a pub-team would be playing at a 15k venue (btw local pub footie teams in the UK do sometimes play in the big stadiums). Different levels of competition have a different levels of scrutiny over the process. If I play pool at the local pool club against another team, we don't have a umpire on board. It is done by mostly by gentleman's agreement and each team captain not causing a fuss. If you see a match on a TV they will have an umpire/referee. > A cloud-rendered system does that and it'll only become more feasible in time. Yes, there's higher latency, but it's a known latency. The system they have currently is more than good enough and have none of the drawbacks of your proposed system. The latency problem is never going away with cloud based rendering because it is limited by physics. Gamers have rejected Stadia for the very problems I described (it was wildly mocked for it) and other services are expensive when you can buy a decent gaming PC for less than £1000. Most of them don't care about Linux, they want to play games. On my discord (which has a lot of programmers and people in IT) I am the only person that uses it regularly. I've worked at quite a few places as well (I am a contractor) and there might be another Linux user there. This experience matches up with every other statistic about Linux usage. We are very much in the minority.