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> If I'm tired, it's necessarily because I'm mismanaging my work and time Is it though? What if you are (always) on call? What if you get a message from your b

> If I'm tired, it's necessarily because I'm mismanaging my work and time Is it though? What if you are (always) on call? What if you get a message from your boss late evening asking for stuff for early morning? What if you have late night meetings or very early morning meetings (and what if both are present)? What if coworkers from other timezones are messaging you outside work hours (if you even have defined work hours) with 'urgent' requests? Often, the time mismanagement is external.

pjmorris 6y ago
True. That's a case where 'change your organization or change your organization' applies. Like it or not, that decision is more in your own hands than in those of the external mismanagers.
- AgentOrange1234 6y ago
  This is a good point. I’m trying to learn to push back more forcefully against unreasonable behavior by coworkers. It can be very socially stressful to stand up against powerful folks in the organization. But if they aren’t called out, it will just continue.
TOGoS 6y ago
In that case 'mismanaging my work and time' means 'not finding a different job[1]' :) [1] Or forming a union and demanding better conditions, but, y'know, programmers.
WJW 6y ago
That's still mismanaging your work and time, but indirectly. Find a better job where your colleagues respect your personal time.
- outworlder 6y ago
  Fine. As long as we recognize that's a very privileged position. Many people on Hacker News have skillsets that are in high demand (across most geographical locations) so they have the luxury of moving on a whim. This is not the case for many (most?) people.
- tartoran 6y ago
  That's a stretch too far in my opinion. Sometimes we end up in situations that are unpleasant and the time it takes to change those situations is not necessarily short. As usual it's easier said than done. But it is doable, sure, I agree. But they still take a huge toll. Think about the hiring interview wall that's been going up recently. If stressed already one doesn't feel like jumping to leets code in preparation for an interview. Also there are other circumstances that make some of us not leave a job right away when we feel something is not right.
- decebalus1 6y ago
  Are you familiar with the /r/wowthanksimcured/ subreddit? Might want to check it out. There are several problems with your statement: - find a better job: the job market is not ideal right now from the worker's perspective. Not to mention the difficulty of onboarding remote employees which is a stressor in itself. Not to mention the stress and the added workload of joining a new company/role while you have to build trust in a short amount of time. - finding and landing a job is stressful. Assuming we're talking about jobs in CS, the prep is long, takes a lot of your personal time and ultimately you need to deal with a good amount of rejection. Stressful af. - after landing a job, figuring out if it's a better job is hard. You really can't. There are yellow/red flags you can notice during interviews along with other intelligence you can get from insiders but more often than not the situation on the ground is more or less a crapshot. - respecting personal time is subjective. Also a thing which you can't really figure it out unless you're in the specific situation and see if it matches your expectation.
  - al_ak 6y ago
    I would somewhat disagree. While I don't think the factors you mention can be ignored, putting too much emphasis on them starts to feel like anxiety. It's a lot easier to cede personal time to your employer when you've already convinced yourself that they deserve it. Anxiety just makes it easier to fall into that trap
  - username90 6y ago
    Work hard at getting a better job instead of work hard to keep your current one if its shitty. It doesn't always apply, but it is correct most of the time.
joemazerino 6y ago
Communication is important, too. Your teammates should have a rotating schedule and understanding of client deliveries so an exhausted person can rotate off for a fresh one.
bot41 6y ago
What if you're on 3 different projects with 3 standup/checkins a day?
- WalterSear 6y ago
  Then you need to follow the advice of health professionals: https://www.theonion.com/health-experts-recommend-standing-up-at-desk-leaving-o-1819577456 https://www.theonion.com/health-experts-recommend-standing-u...
- loopz 6y ago
  You skip those meetings that fail to prove a relevant agenda upfront. Ofc this filter away everything, so you go where you'll be useful and explain to your direct manager your prioritizations.
grecy 6y ago
At that point it's time to fire your boss and take your life in a direction that is right for you.
layoric 6y ago
Thanks for posting this. Startup DevOps with 24/7 on call is brutal, especially if you're a very early employee.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
motohagiography 6y ago
I'd recommend learning to set personal boundaries because every regret will come from the times you didn't keep them, imo.

pjmorris 6y ago

True. That's a case where 'change your organization or change your organization' applies. Like it or not, that decision is more in your own hands than in those of the external mismanagers.

AgentOrange1234 6y ago
This is a good point. I’m trying to learn to push back more forcefully against unreasonable behavior by coworkers. It can be very socially stressful to stand up against powerful folks in the organization. But if they aren’t called out, it will just continue.

TOGoS 6y ago

In that case 'mismanaging my work and time' means 'not finding a different job[1]' :) [1] Or forming a union and demanding better conditions, but, y'know, programmers.

WJW 6y ago

That's still mismanaging your work and time, but indirectly. Find a better job where your colleagues respect your personal time.

outworlder 6y ago
Fine. As long as we recognize that's a very privileged position. Many people on Hacker News have skillsets that are in high demand (across most geographical locations) so they have the luxury of moving on a whim. This is not the case for many (most?) people.
tartoran 6y ago
That's a stretch too far in my opinion. Sometimes we end up in situations that are unpleasant and the time it takes to change those situations is not necessarily short. As usual it's easier said than done. But it is doable, sure, I agree. But they still take a huge toll. Think about the hiring interview wall that's been going up recently. If stressed already one doesn't feel like jumping to leets code in preparation for an interview. Also there are other circumstances that make some of us not leave a job right away when we feel something is not right.
decebalus1 6y ago
Are you familiar with the /r/wowthanksimcured/ subreddit? Might want to check it out. There are several problems with your statement: - find a better job: the job market is not ideal right now from the worker's perspective. Not to mention the difficulty of onboarding remote employees which is a stressor in itself. Not to mention the stress and the added workload of joining a new company/role while you have to build trust in a short amount of time. - finding and landing a job is stressful. Assuming we're talking about jobs in CS, the prep is long, takes a lot of your personal time and ultimately you need to deal with a good amount of rejection. Stressful af. - after landing a job, figuring out if it's a better job is hard. You really can't. There are yellow/red flags you can notice during interviews along with other intelligence you can get from insiders but more often than not the situation on the ground is more or less a crapshot. - respecting personal time is subjective. Also a thing which you can't really figure it out unless you're in the specific situation and see if it matches your expectation.
- al_ak 6y ago
  I would somewhat disagree. While I don't think the factors you mention can be ignored, putting too much emphasis on them starts to feel like anxiety. It's a lot easier to cede personal time to your employer when you've already convinced yourself that they deserve it. Anxiety just makes it easier to fall into that trap
- username90 6y ago
  Work hard at getting a better job instead of work hard to keep your current one if its shitty. It doesn't always apply, but it is correct most of the time.

joemazerino 6y ago

Communication is important, too. Your teammates should have a rotating schedule and understanding of client deliveries so an exhausted person can rotate off for a fresh one.

bot41 6y ago

What if you're on 3 different projects with 3 standup/checkins a day?

WalterSear 6y ago
Then you need to follow the advice of health professionals: https://www.theonion.com/health-experts-recommend-standing-up-at-desk-leaving-o-1819577456 https://www.theonion.com/health-experts-recommend-standing-u...
loopz 6y ago
You skip those meetings that fail to prove a relevant agenda upfront. Ofc this filter away everything, so you go where you'll be useful and explain to your direct manager your prioritizations.

grecy 6y ago

At that point it's time to fire your boss and take your life in a direction that is right for you.

layoric 6y ago

Thanks for posting this. Startup DevOps with 24/7 on call is brutal, especially if you're a very early employee.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

motohagiography 6y ago

I'd recommend learning to set personal boundaries because every regret will come from the times you didn't keep them, imo.