6 ms·

Wouldn't be surprised if the cooling solution was serialised and it had a detection whether the cooling is originally programmed for the particular unit like th

Wouldn't be surprised if the cooling solution was serialised and it had a detection whether the cooling is originally programmed for the particular unit like they do now with cameras and other peripherals (check iPhone 12 teardown videos). I bet that the logic would check the expected temperature for given binning and then shut down the system if it is too cool or too hot. Apple knows better than the users what hardware should work with the unit.

ljm 6y ago
So, essentially their new Macbook line is a glorified iPhone/iPad but with a foldable display (on a hinge)? Not too far-fetched when you see the direction MacOS is headed, UI-wise. And it sounds nice, but if it means that repairability suffers then we'll just end up with a whole wave of disposable laptops.
- duhi88 6y ago
  To me it looks more like they swapped the motherboard out with their own, keeping the rest of the hardware the same. With RAM and SSD already soldered to the motherboard, repairability can't really get much worse than it already is.
  - varispeed 6y ago
    It's not difficult to replace RAM or SSD with the right tools (which may be within reach of an enthusiast), problem is that you often cannot buy spare chips as manufacturers can only sell them to Apple or that they are serialised - programmed to work only with that particular chip and then the unit has to be reprogrammed after the replacement by the manufacturer. I think they started doing it after rework tools became affordable for broader audience. You can get a trinocular microscope, rework station and an oven for under a $1000 these days.
    - nicoburns 6y ago
      You can get a screwdriver (allowing you to replace RAM and SSDs in most laptops, including older macs) for $5. There's really no excuse for them to do this all the while claiming to be environmentally friendly.
      - martimarkov 6y ago
        Except the RAM is in the M1 now. Pretty good excuse Id'say.
        nicoburns 6y ago
        Mmm... it's certainly better than they had before. But really they ought to be designing repairable machines. If that makes them a little slower then so be it.
        bloody-crow 6y ago
        Is it? I thought only memory controller is in the chip, not the memory itself.
        Reason077 6y ago
        The M1's RAM is integrated into the SoC package. But it's still separate RAM chips, not actually on the same die as the M1.
      - chrisweekly 6y ago
        Depends on the model. My 2012 mbp15r uses glue and solder, not screws. Maxed out the specs when I got it, which is why it's still usable. Would've been delighted for it to have been thicker and heavier to support DIY upgrades and further improve its longevity while reducing its environmental impact, but that wasn't an option. Needed the retina screen for my work, bit the bullet. Someday maybe there will be a bulletproof user-serviceable laptop form factor w a great screen, battery life and decent keyboard, that can legally run macOs... glad to say my client-issued 2019 mbp16r checks most of those boxes. /ramble
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - Miraste 6y ago
      Serialized components should be illegal, frankly.
      - kube-system 6y ago
        There are good privacy and security reasons that someone might want serialized components.
        Miraste 6y ago
        I don't believe those reasons are more important than open access and reducing the environmental impact of planned obsolescence, outside of the kind of government agencies that are exempt from consumer electronics regulations anyway.
        kube-system 6y ago
        Surely there is a better (and I'd bet, more effective) way to handle environmental regulations than mandating specific engineering design patterns within the legal code. Perhaps instead, it might be a better idea to directly regulate the actions which cause the environmental impact? i.e. the disposal of those items themselves? Engineers tend to get frustrated with laws that micromanage specific design choices, because engineering practices change over time. Many of the laws that attempt to do so, backfire with unintended consequences. It is quite possible that your solution might be just that -- many industries with high security needs are already very concerned with hardware tampering. A common current solution for this is "burner" hardware. It is not uncommon for the Fortune 500 to give employees laptops that are used for a single trip to China, and then thrown away. Tech that can give the user assurance that the device hasn't been compromised decreases the chance that these devices will be disposed of. As a side note, I don't think serialized components is even one of the top 25 factors that does(/would) contribute to unnecessary electronics disposal.
        varispeed 6y ago
        I think resetting instead of bricking doesn't compromise security, but saves a burner laptop from ending up in landfill. I get your point, but I think company would have to demonstrate that e.g. serialising meets particular business need that is different from planned obsolescence. Could be a part of certification processes that products before getting marketed have to go through.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Reason077 6y ago
    With Apple Silicon, the RAM is not even on the motherboard. It's integrated into the SoC package!
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      I don’t think that’s true for M1.
      - Reason077 6y ago
        Yes, it is true of the M1. RAM is integrated into the M1 SoC package (but not on the same die).
- merrin1010101 6y ago
  To be fair to apple, people keep their macbooks for years and years, keeping them out of landfill longer. They are well made and the design doesn't really age. Written on my 2015 Macbook pro.
  - BatFastard 6y ago
    To be fair to the rest of the world, this comment is written on a 20 year old PC. It has had some component upgrades, but works like a champ after 20 years.
    - Humdeee 6y ago
      If you keep replacing failed/failing components or give needed upgrades to the system every few years, is it fair to call it 'working like a champ for 20 years'?
      - llbeansandrice 6y ago
        Definitely not if the metric we care about is keeping components out of landfills.
        ogre_codes 6y ago
        I don't understand the landfill argument here. A typical "Upgradable" PC is in a box 10 times the size of the mini. If you upgrade the GPU on a PC, you toss out an older GPU because it has pretty much zero resale value. Typical Apple hardware is used for 10-15 years, often passing between multiple owners.
        varispeed 6y ago
        It's a shame we don't have charities that would take such parts and then distributed them to less fortunate countries. Ten years ago a ten year old graphics card would no longer be quite usable, but now 10 years old card should work just fine for most of the tasks, except more advanced gaming.
- ogre_codes 6y ago
  > So, essentially their new Macbook line is a glorified iPhone/iPad but with a foldable display (on a hinge)? This isn't some new. Since day 1, the iPhone has always been a tiny computer with a forked version of OS X. > but if it means that repairability suffers then we'll just end up with a whole wave of disposable laptops. Laptops have been largely "Disposable" for some time. In the case of the Mac, that generally means the laptop lasts for 10-15 years unless there is some catastrophic issue. Generally after that long, when a failure happens even a moderate repair bill is likely to trigger a new purchase.
Reason077 6y ago
For a while, the fan was broken in my 2017 MacBook Pro 13". Didn't spin at all. The MacBook never complained (except when running the Apple hardware diagnostics). It didn't overheat or shut down unexpectedly. It just got a bit slower due to more thermal throttling. I expect it would work the other way, too. Improve the cooling and performance under load would improve.
- Dayshine 6y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlOPPuNv4Ec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlOPPuNv4Ec This is a video from Linus Tech Tips that demonstrates that no matter how much you cool it, they've physically prevented the chip from taking advantage of it. And if it could be fixed with software, they would have worked out how, they're into that kinda tweaking.
- kube-system 6y ago
  Intel chips, on the other hand, are designed to work with a varying degree of thermal situations because they don't control the laptop it is put in. In this situation, Apple could potentially get more creative with their approach to thermals because they control the entire hardware stack.
  - dahfizz 6y ago
    Sure, if by "more creative" you mean handicap the CPUs by not delivering them any power because they know they can't cool them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlOPPuNv4Ec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlOPPuNv4Ec
    - kube-system 6y ago
      Intel processors use Intel designed throttling solutions... which exist to keep their own processors from overheating because they have no control over the final implementation. These new M1 laptops are the first laptops that have complete thermal solutions designed by a single company. As an example, there is the potential to design a computer with no throttling at all if you are able to control the entire thermal design.
kmeisthax 6y ago
If Apple actually did that Louis Rossman would be out of a job. No, not in the sense that the cooling lockout would make him unable to fix MacBooks - he clearly has the industry connections to get whatever tools he needs to break that lockout. Yes, in the sense that many Apple laptops have inadequate cooling. Apple has been dangerously redlining Intel chips for a while now - they even install firmware profiles designed to peg the laptop at 90C+ under load. The last Intel MBA had a fan pointed nowhere near the heatsink, probably because they crammed it into the hypothetical fanless Mac they wanted to make. Apple actually trying to lock the heatsink to the board would indicate that Apple is actually taking cooling seriously for once and probably is engineering less-fragile hardware, at least in one aspect.

ljm 6y ago

So, essentially their new Macbook line is a glorified iPhone/iPad but with a foldable display (on a hinge)? Not too far-fetched when you see the direction MacOS is headed, UI-wise. And it sounds nice, but if it means that repairability suffers then we'll just end up with a whole wave of disposable laptops.

duhi88 6y ago
To me it looks more like they swapped the motherboard out with their own, keeping the rest of the hardware the same. With RAM and SSD already soldered to the motherboard, repairability can't really get much worse than it already is.
- varispeed 6y ago
  It's not difficult to replace RAM or SSD with the right tools (which may be within reach of an enthusiast), problem is that you often cannot buy spare chips as manufacturers can only sell them to Apple or that they are serialised - programmed to work only with that particular chip and then the unit has to be reprogrammed after the replacement by the manufacturer. I think they started doing it after rework tools became affordable for broader audience. You can get a trinocular microscope, rework station and an oven for under a $1000 these days.
  - nicoburns 6y ago
    You can get a screwdriver (allowing you to replace RAM and SSDs in most laptops, including older macs) for $5. There's really no excuse for them to do this all the while claiming to be environmentally friendly.
    - martimarkov 6y ago
      Except the RAM is in the M1 now. Pretty good excuse Id'say.
      - nicoburns 6y ago
        Mmm... it's certainly better than they had before. But really they ought to be designing repairable machines. If that makes them a little slower then so be it.
      - bloody-crow 6y ago
        Is it? I thought only memory controller is in the chip, not the memory itself.
        Reason077 6y ago
        The M1's RAM is integrated into the SoC package. But it's still separate RAM chips, not actually on the same die as the M1.
    - chrisweekly 6y ago
      Depends on the model. My 2012 mbp15r uses glue and solder, not screws. Maxed out the specs when I got it, which is why it's still usable. Would've been delighted for it to have been thicker and heavier to support DIY upgrades and further improve its longevity while reducing its environmental impact, but that wasn't an option. Needed the retina screen for my work, bit the bullet. Someday maybe there will be a bulletproof user-serviceable laptop form factor w a great screen, battery life and decent keyboard, that can legally run macOs... glad to say my client-issued 2019 mbp16r checks most of those boxes. /ramble
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - Miraste 6y ago
    Serialized components should be illegal, frankly.
    - kube-system 6y ago
      There are good privacy and security reasons that someone might want serialized components.
      - Miraste 6y ago
        I don't believe those reasons are more important than open access and reducing the environmental impact of planned obsolescence, outside of the kind of government agencies that are exempt from consumer electronics regulations anyway.
        kube-system 6y ago
        Surely there is a better (and I'd bet, more effective) way to handle environmental regulations than mandating specific engineering design patterns within the legal code. Perhaps instead, it might be a better idea to directly regulate the actions which cause the environmental impact? i.e. the disposal of those items themselves? Engineers tend to get frustrated with laws that micromanage specific design choices, because engineering practices change over time. Many of the laws that attempt to do so, backfire with unintended consequences. It is quite possible that your solution might be just that -- many industries with high security needs are already very concerned with hardware tampering. A common current solution for this is "burner" hardware. It is not uncommon for the Fortune 500 to give employees laptops that are used for a single trip to China, and then thrown away. Tech that can give the user assurance that the device hasn't been compromised decreases the chance that these devices will be disposed of. As a side note, I don't think serialized components is even one of the top 25 factors that does(/would) contribute to unnecessary electronics disposal.
        varispeed 6y ago
        I think resetting instead of bricking doesn't compromise security, but saves a burner laptop from ending up in landfill. I get your point, but I think company would have to demonstrate that e.g. serialising meets particular business need that is different from planned obsolescence. Could be a part of certification processes that products before getting marketed have to go through.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- Reason077 6y ago
  With Apple Silicon, the RAM is not even on the motherboard. It's integrated into the SoC package!
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    I don’t think that’s true for M1.
    - Reason077 6y ago
      Yes, it is true of the M1. RAM is integrated into the M1 SoC package (but not on the same die).
merrin1010101 6y ago
To be fair to apple, people keep their macbooks for years and years, keeping them out of landfill longer. They are well made and the design doesn't really age. Written on my 2015 Macbook pro.
- BatFastard 6y ago
  To be fair to the rest of the world, this comment is written on a 20 year old PC. It has had some component upgrades, but works like a champ after 20 years.
  - Humdeee 6y ago
    If you keep replacing failed/failing components or give needed upgrades to the system every few years, is it fair to call it 'working like a champ for 20 years'?
    - llbeansandrice 6y ago
      Definitely not if the metric we care about is keeping components out of landfills.
      - ogre_codes 6y ago
        I don't understand the landfill argument here. A typical "Upgradable" PC is in a box 10 times the size of the mini. If you upgrade the GPU on a PC, you toss out an older GPU because it has pretty much zero resale value. Typical Apple hardware is used for 10-15 years, often passing between multiple owners.
        varispeed 6y ago
        It's a shame we don't have charities that would take such parts and then distributed them to less fortunate countries. Ten years ago a ten year old graphics card would no longer be quite usable, but now 10 years old card should work just fine for most of the tasks, except more advanced gaming.
ogre_codes 6y ago
> So, essentially their new Macbook line is a glorified iPhone/iPad but with a foldable display (on a hinge)? This isn't some new. Since day 1, the iPhone has always been a tiny computer with a forked version of OS X. > but if it means that repairability suffers then we'll just end up with a whole wave of disposable laptops. Laptops have been largely "Disposable" for some time. In the case of the Mac, that generally means the laptop lasts for 10-15 years unless there is some catastrophic issue. Generally after that long, when a failure happens even a moderate repair bill is likely to trigger a new purchase.

Reason077 6y ago

For a while, the fan was broken in my 2017 MacBook Pro 13". Didn't spin at all. The MacBook never complained (except when running the Apple hardware diagnostics). It didn't overheat or shut down unexpectedly. It just got a bit slower due to more thermal throttling. I expect it would work the other way, too. Improve the cooling and performance under load would improve.

Dayshine 6y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlOPPuNv4Ec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlOPPuNv4Ec This is a video from Linus Tech Tips that demonstrates that no matter how much you cool it, they've physically prevented the chip from taking advantage of it. And if it could be fixed with software, they would have worked out how, they're into that kinda tweaking.
kube-system 6y ago
Intel chips, on the other hand, are designed to work with a varying degree of thermal situations because they don't control the laptop it is put in. In this situation, Apple could potentially get more creative with their approach to thermals because they control the entire hardware stack.
- dahfizz 6y ago
  Sure, if by "more creative" you mean handicap the CPUs by not delivering them any power because they know they can't cool them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlOPPuNv4Ec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlOPPuNv4Ec
  - kube-system 6y ago
    Intel processors use Intel designed throttling solutions... which exist to keep their own processors from overheating because they have no control over the final implementation. These new M1 laptops are the first laptops that have complete thermal solutions designed by a single company. As an example, there is the potential to design a computer with no throttling at all if you are able to control the entire thermal design.

kmeisthax 6y ago

If Apple actually did that Louis Rossman would be out of a job. No, not in the sense that the cooling lockout would make him unable to fix MacBooks - he clearly has the industry connections to get whatever tools he needs to break that lockout. Yes, in the sense that many Apple laptops have inadequate cooling. Apple has been dangerously redlining Intel chips for a while now - they even install firmware profiles designed to peg the laptop at 90C+ under load. The last Intel MBA had a fan pointed nowhere near the heatsink, probably because they crammed it into the hypothetical fanless Mac they wanted to make. Apple actually trying to lock the heatsink to the board would indicate that Apple is actually taking cooling seriously for once and probably is engineering less-fragile hardware, at least in one aspect.