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> The military is a political entity Veteran here, served during the contentious 2000 election. The US military very strongly prides itself on being an apolit

> The military is a political entity Veteran here, served during the contentious 2000 election. The US military very strongly prides itself on being an apolitical entity. There's an important distinction between the electorate having differing opinions about the role and size of the military and the scope of its missions, and the military itself being a political entity.

ddevault 6y ago
This is not a universally held belief.
- giantg2 6y ago
  Perhaps those with a contrary belief should review the UMJC, which restricts political statements/actions for military members, even off duty.
  - toyg 6y ago
    Sadly those lines are increasingly blurry. Isn’t there an issue right now with the new Secretary of Defence, for example, who technically has not been out of Green Berets long enough to be appointed...?
    - giantg2 6y ago
      With any laws, some of the lines can be blurry. I'm not familiar with that specific situation. I just mention this because there are laws restricting military personnel pretty heavily from many political things, even just criticizing the president. The institution itself is absolutely forbidden from being involved in politics to prevent coups.
  - jki275 6y ago
    You're talking about the Hatch Act I presume. The UCMJ doesn't get into that that I'm aware of.
- zeveb 6y ago
  The earth being round is not universally held, either, but it is true. The military is patriotic, yes, as are its members (it is difficult to imagine how they could be effective were they not), but the military tries very, very hard to be apolitical. Yes, individuals in the military have strong political opinions, just like many other individual Americans. It seems to me that any country at a point where the combination of its flag together with an oath of office, oath of enlistment or commissioning oath is seen as political rather than patriotic cannot be in a good place. It is not too far from that to one where calling for fair and unbiased administration of elections is considered political rather than patriotic. Thank you for assisting in the election, and thank you for your excellent software projects, but in this case I think that you were incorrect.
  - morelisp 6y ago
    In many countries other than the US it is uncommon for private citizens in daily life to fly or display flags at all, let alone with some nationalist or political slogan adorning it, except when associated with right-wing activism.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    > political rather than patriotic Unfortunately patriotism itself is highly political; the ultimate question of "my country, right or wrong" results in some people noticing that it is in fact wrong in some cases. Do they not teach Clausewitz in the US military? "War is the continuation of politics by other means". Every shot fired in anger is a political act. Not the politics of the person firing it, but those directing the fire. It is possible to try to be non-partisan, but an apolitical military is an oxymoron. The US military is the guarantor of a host of political lines across the world; supporting South Korea or Taiwan or Israel or Germany or Bosnia is a political act. You can't sign up and then disclaim responsibility for the political results of following orders "apolitically". The last people who tried that got shot at Nuremberg.
    - brandmeyer 6y ago
      > Not the politics of the person firing it, but those directing the fire. ... you're almost there... and yet ... > It is possible to try to be non-partisan, but an apolitical military is an oxymoron. > > The US military is the guarantor of a host of political lines across the world; supporting South Korea or Taiwan or Israel or Germany or Bosnia is a political act. At the direction of the duly elected civilian leadership. > You can't sign up and then disclaim responsibility for the political results of following orders "apolitically". The last people who tried that got shot at Nuremberg. This isn't considered a matter of politics. Its a matter of honor and lawfulness.
mindslight 6y ago
The electorate isn't able to express meaningful opinions on the role and size of the military, thus support of the institution itself has become political.
- brandmeyer 6y ago
  The vote and free speech remain powerful tools for meaningful expression. And they do have an impact. Even if it seems like you're being ignored, each voice really does matter, and policy does change in response. But that policy flows from the civilian political realm. Military leadership doesn't decide which missions to take on. Congress and the President do. The military won't decide the fate of this election, no matter how contentious it gets. The civilian bodies will.
  - mindslight 6y ago
    Voting between candidates that all support ongoing military actions is not meaningful. It's similar to the treasonous NSA - discussing it is simply outside of the mainstream Overton window, primary candidates who dare touch it are branded "unelectable" etc. Speech gets swamped by mass propaganda. I don't see how it's possible to look at say the run up to the Iraq war and think that antiwar had a meaningful voice. When it comes down to it, the warmongers are just better funded, better connected, and take advantage of basic human nature. Since it seems impossible to prevent the military from being used for elective wars, or even to simply downsize it, discouraging general support for the military makes sense (when voice fails, try exit). I'm not asking you to agree with my arguments above, but you don't get to make a unilateral call that this isn't a political viewpoint.
    - rayiner 6y ago
      If there was any political support for changing the approach to the NSA one of the candidates would back it.
      - mindslight 6y ago
isleyaardvark 6y ago
I agree, and think that not wearing that kind of thing at the polls is appropriate to keep it apolitical.
griffinkelly 6y ago
With every election cycle, my CO has constantly reminded people that they cannot wear their uniform to political rallies, post on the internet without a disclaimer; the military is not political in any sense.

ddevault 6y ago

This is not a universally held belief.

giantg2 6y ago
Perhaps those with a contrary belief should review the UMJC, which restricts political statements/actions for military members, even off duty.
- toyg 6y ago
  Sadly those lines are increasingly blurry. Isn’t there an issue right now with the new Secretary of Defence, for example, who technically has not been out of Green Berets long enough to be appointed...?
  - giantg2 6y ago
    With any laws, some of the lines can be blurry. I'm not familiar with that specific situation. I just mention this because there are laws restricting military personnel pretty heavily from many political things, even just criticizing the president. The institution itself is absolutely forbidden from being involved in politics to prevent coups.
- jki275 6y ago
  You're talking about the Hatch Act I presume. The UCMJ doesn't get into that that I'm aware of.
zeveb 6y ago
The earth being round is not universally held, either, but it is true. The military is patriotic, yes, as are its members (it is difficult to imagine how they could be effective were they not), but the military tries very, very hard to be apolitical. Yes, individuals in the military have strong political opinions, just like many other individual Americans. It seems to me that any country at a point where the combination of its flag together with an oath of office, oath of enlistment or commissioning oath is seen as political rather than patriotic cannot be in a good place. It is not too far from that to one where calling for fair and unbiased administration of elections is considered political rather than patriotic. Thank you for assisting in the election, and thank you for your excellent software projects, but in this case I think that you were incorrect.
- morelisp 6y ago
  In many countries other than the US it is uncommon for private citizens in daily life to fly or display flags at all, let alone with some nationalist or political slogan adorning it, except when associated with right-wing activism.
- pjc50 6y ago
  > political rather than patriotic Unfortunately patriotism itself is highly political; the ultimate question of "my country, right or wrong" results in some people noticing that it is in fact wrong in some cases. Do they not teach Clausewitz in the US military? "War is the continuation of politics by other means". Every shot fired in anger is a political act. Not the politics of the person firing it, but those directing the fire. It is possible to try to be non-partisan, but an apolitical military is an oxymoron. The US military is the guarantor of a host of political lines across the world; supporting South Korea or Taiwan or Israel or Germany or Bosnia is a political act. You can't sign up and then disclaim responsibility for the political results of following orders "apolitically". The last people who tried that got shot at Nuremberg.
  - brandmeyer 6y ago
    > Not the politics of the person firing it, but those directing the fire. ... you're almost there... and yet ... > It is possible to try to be non-partisan, but an apolitical military is an oxymoron. > > The US military is the guarantor of a host of political lines across the world; supporting South Korea or Taiwan or Israel or Germany or Bosnia is a political act. At the direction of the duly elected civilian leadership. > You can't sign up and then disclaim responsibility for the political results of following orders "apolitically". The last people who tried that got shot at Nuremberg. This isn't considered a matter of politics. Its a matter of honor and lawfulness.

mindslight 6y ago

The electorate isn't able to express meaningful opinions on the role and size of the military, thus support of the institution itself has become political.

brandmeyer 6y ago
The vote and free speech remain powerful tools for meaningful expression. And they do have an impact. Even if it seems like you're being ignored, each voice really does matter, and policy does change in response. But that policy flows from the civilian political realm. Military leadership doesn't decide which missions to take on. Congress and the President do. The military won't decide the fate of this election, no matter how contentious it gets. The civilian bodies will.
- mindslight 6y ago
  Voting between candidates that all support ongoing military actions is not meaningful. It's similar to the treasonous NSA - discussing it is simply outside of the mainstream Overton window, primary candidates who dare touch it are branded "unelectable" etc. Speech gets swamped by mass propaganda. I don't see how it's possible to look at say the run up to the Iraq war and think that antiwar had a meaningful voice. When it comes down to it, the warmongers are just better funded, better connected, and take advantage of basic human nature. Since it seems impossible to prevent the military from being used for elective wars, or even to simply downsize it, discouraging general support for the military makes sense (when voice fails, try exit). I'm not asking you to agree with my arguments above, but you don't get to make a unilateral call that this isn't a political viewpoint.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    If there was any political support for changing the approach to the NSA one of the candidates would back it.
    - mindslight 6y ago

isleyaardvark 6y ago

I agree, and think that not wearing that kind of thing at the polls is appropriate to keep it apolitical.

griffinkelly 6y ago

With every election cycle, my CO has constantly reminded people that they cannot wear their uniform to political rallies, post on the internet without a disclaimer; the military is not political in any sense.