4 ms·

So here is a story about Germany, a standard western country: I recently started in IT freelancing and the loans are crazy compared to most other jobs in this c

by ktpsns 6y ago

So here is a story about Germany, a standard western country: I recently started in IT freelancing and the loans are crazy compared to most other jobs in this country. It depends a bit on the clients, but in the finance sector 1000€/day are standard. Many colleagues tell me they would not work for less then 100€/hour. Coming from academia where you are lucky with a 2000€/month postdoc position, this is insane. It feels completely detached from the rest of society. Even a professor, judge or director doesn't make more then 8000€/month (netto).

palae 6y ago
I thought most postdocs in Germany were on TV-L 13? That should be at least around 2500€ net, right? If you're at 100%, of course, but I would think most postdocs are.
- ktpsns 6y ago
  Yes, you are right. Academia is subject to a wag agreement and 100% E-13 corresponds to roughly 4000€ gross (brutto) and 2370€ net. Cf. http://oeffentlicher-dienst.info/tv-l/allg/ http://oeffentlicher-dienst.info/tv-l/allg/
roel_v 6y ago
When you are contracting, e1000/day doesn't tranlate into ((552) - 25) 1000 * 0.6 net income in the way a salaried position does. If you only just started contracting, beware of thinking that it does...
- ktpsns 6y ago
  Can you explain me the overhead costs you have when contracting? Of course you have to pay for your office and equipment yourself. You also might have to pay (more) for health and social insurance, depending on the country where you live in. The same applies for tax (such as VAT). Also, you have to deal with holidays and off-time for yourself. But given that, what more is the difference between contracting and being employed?
  - roel_v 6y ago
    The first thing that came to mind was "All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?" But yeah, all the things you mention. I think it's conservative but not unreasonable to use as a rule of thumb that your net take home is about half of what a 'naive' calculation would net you. Especially in the beginning where you need to reserve a certain part of your revenues as a buffer for economic downturns; 6 months at the least, better a year. Back in May/April, it was the contractors that got the boot first. From what I can tell in IT they've mostly rebounded, but in previous crises that didn't happen so soon. And you can either choose to work with a middle man, who will take a sizeable cut of your revenue, or do your own customer development, which takes a lot of time. Yes there are people who work for the same customer months on end for many years, but a) that's dodgy from a tax perspective, and b) in those cases you generally don't get to charge e1000/day. All I'm saying is - grass is always greener on the other side. Yes as a contractor/consultant you'll make (a lot) more as a programmer in Europe, but not as much as the proverbial e1000/day rate makes it out to be.
  - roel_v 6y ago
    Also, in several countries that I know of, there are websites (the one I have in mind is by a union, but I've seen others in the past) that list out in excruciating detail what sort of costs you need to take into account when setting your (minimum) rates. It varies quite a bit by country.
  - longnguyen 6y ago
    I think each one has different number but here is a good guide on how to calculate your hourly rate. Mine is about x2.25 https://jenniferbourn.com/calculate-freelance-hourly-rate/ https://jenniferbourn.com/calculate-freelance-hourly-rate/

by ktpsns 6y ago

palae 6y ago

I thought most postdocs in Germany were on TV-L 13? That should be at least around 2500€ net, right? If you're at 100%, of course, but I would think most postdocs are.

ktpsns 6y ago
Yes, you are right. Academia is subject to a wag agreement and 100% E-13 corresponds to roughly 4000€ gross (brutto) and 2370€ net. Cf. http://oeffentlicher-dienst.info/tv-l/allg/ http://oeffentlicher-dienst.info/tv-l/allg/

roel_v 6y ago

When you are contracting, e1000/day doesn't tranlate into ((552) - 25) 1000 * 0.6 net income in the way a salaried position does. If you only just started contracting, beware of thinking that it does...

ktpsns 6y ago
Can you explain me the overhead costs you have when contracting? Of course you have to pay for your office and equipment yourself. You also might have to pay (more) for health and social insurance, depending on the country where you live in. The same applies for tax (such as VAT). Also, you have to deal with holidays and off-time for yourself. But given that, what more is the difference between contracting and being employed?
- roel_v 6y ago
  The first thing that came to mind was "All right... all right... but apart from better sanitation and medicine and education and irrigation and public health and roads and a freshwater system and baths and public order... what have the Romans done for us?" But yeah, all the things you mention. I think it's conservative but not unreasonable to use as a rule of thumb that your net take home is about half of what a 'naive' calculation would net you. Especially in the beginning where you need to reserve a certain part of your revenues as a buffer for economic downturns; 6 months at the least, better a year. Back in May/April, it was the contractors that got the boot first. From what I can tell in IT they've mostly rebounded, but in previous crises that didn't happen so soon. And you can either choose to work with a middle man, who will take a sizeable cut of your revenue, or do your own customer development, which takes a lot of time. Yes there are people who work for the same customer months on end for many years, but a) that's dodgy from a tax perspective, and b) in those cases you generally don't get to charge e1000/day. All I'm saying is - grass is always greener on the other side. Yes as a contractor/consultant you'll make (a lot) more as a programmer in Europe, but not as much as the proverbial e1000/day rate makes it out to be.
- roel_v 6y ago
  Also, in several countries that I know of, there are websites (the one I have in mind is by a union, but I've seen others in the past) that list out in excruciating detail what sort of costs you need to take into account when setting your (minimum) rates. It varies quite a bit by country.
- longnguyen 6y ago
  I think each one has different number but here is a good guide on how to calculate your hourly rate. Mine is about x2.25 https://jenniferbourn.com/calculate-freelance-hourly-rate/ https://jenniferbourn.com/calculate-freelance-hourly-rate/