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This is a much more complex piece of news than most Americans think. I just hope they don't show his body on TV. That's going to just incite and inflame jihad

This is a much more complex piece of news than most Americans think. I just hope they don't show his body on TV. That's going to just incite and inflame jihad-minded fighters. And I sure hope this doesn't make the U.S. pull out of Afghanistan in the next 90 days like NBC just implied, because that would be bad for everyone in that country. EDIT if OBL really was killed in a mansion in Islamabad, that changes a lot in relations between the US and Pakistan. If he was killed in the FATA, then it's pretty meaningless operationally, it's just a news deal that will inflame the jihadi world for a while. Edit2 Abbottabad is in NWFP, so not exactly Islamabad and a different interesting. If Obama didn't get Pakistan's permission before going, that is interesting. Not going to change wars on the ground except for a inflammation in jihadi tensions.

aterimperator 15y ago
He was killed in Pakistan, if I heard correctly.
marshray 15y ago
really was killed in a mansion in Islamabad, that changes a lot in relations between the US and Pakistan Everyone in Pakistan already knows that the US has been killing people with drone strikes for years and years now. They're far more aware of it than Americans. It's hard to see that there are many Pakistanis who are going to dislike America more for having actually gotten OBL. On the other hand, ending US missile strikes in Pakistan can only help.
- brianpan 15y ago
  I think russnewcomer was implying that if he was in a mansion, the Pakastani government must have known more about his whereabouts than they said they did. Which would potentially affect US-Pakastani diplomatic relations.
  - marshray 15y ago
    if he was in a mansion, the Pakastani government must have known more about his whereabouts than they said they did That's certainly possible or even likely, but it's not like his name would have been on the utility bills either. Many of the homes in my town (not mine) have a finished basement...off the tax records. It'd be easier to hide a famous person in a big walled compound than a smaller dwelling.
  - afterburner 15y ago
    It's no secret that many in the Pakistani intelligence community were overtly pro-Osama. It doesn't mean the whole country or government shared this feeling, nor that the intelligence community is still as pro-Osama (or at all given the jihadist attacks in Pakistan in the last few years). This kind of complicated situation has existed in Pakistan for a long time, and the US is fully aware of it. To a certain extent this kind of situation exists in most countries in the region.
  - chopsueyar 15y ago
    Now that the 'target' has been neutralized, why should the US concern itself with US-Pakastani diplomatic relations?
- russnewcomer 15y ago
  I used to live over there, I know much more than most Americans that there have been drone strikes inside Pakistan for years. And U.S. missile strikes on non-military targets have to end, agreed. But if the news is true that the U.S. has known about this compound, that it was housing a major terrorist figure, and that the Pakistani Army (not ISI or rather, not just ISI) knew about it, then that's a major game-changer in U.S.-Pakistani governmental relations. Your average American and your average Pakistani don't know anything about each other. (for very general values of anything, clearly.)
  - marshray 15y ago
    It's only a game-changer if one of the governments recently learned something new about the other. This idea that some in Pakistan's services support OBL and are not so helpful to the US isn't exactly news. The official US statement went something like "we got a tip back in August". Which means the important question is how long did each government know OBL was in there? Was Pakistan holding him for the right moment? At what level did they know they were holding him? When did the US learn about it with any confidence? My guess is that the US wouldn't be willing to wait on the info indefinitely given the risk that OBL would give them the slip again.
    - russnewcomer 15y ago
      The idea that ISI doesn't like the U.S. is nothing new, it's true. But the idea that the Pakistani military sheltered him (which is an easy conclusion if he was that close to the military academy) and that the U.S. then went in, made the kill, and then told Pakistan, that could be a major game changer in relations at the official level. So you are correct, as the details come out, it could turn out to be just country level business. But if it's more like what I described, I think it's a bigger deal for U.S.-Pakistan relations than when Bush forced Musharraf into letting the U.S. hit Afghanistan after 9/11.
noarchy 15y ago
I expect that some sort of proof of OBL's death will need to be provided. This is where showing the body comes into play. I don't know if they can get away with not showing it.
- killerdark 15y ago
  I haven't seen any new footage of Osama for at least 8 years. Unless I see the body I'm not going to believe that they killed him. Also, I want the body checked for marks of being frozen for a long period of time.
  - noarchy 15y ago
    Given that we haven't seen anything new from OBL in so many years, it also means that we don't know how he aged, or the state of his health at the time of death (remember the rumours about kidney failure, for example?). Seeing his body may be quite a revelation, in many ways.
- shrikant 15y ago
  http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article1985036.ece?viewImage=1 http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article1985036.ec... A screen-grab from Express TV (a Pakistani news outlet) showing his body. I offer no commentary as to its vintage and authenticity, however.
  - kouiskas 15y ago
    It's a photoshopped picture that's been around for years. On the original you can see how bad a copy/paste job it is: http://worldnewstweets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/osama-dead.jpg http://worldnewstweets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/osama-...

aterimperator 15y ago

He was killed in Pakistan, if I heard correctly.

marshray 15y ago

really was killed in a mansion in Islamabad, that changes a lot in relations between the US and Pakistan Everyone in Pakistan already knows that the US has been killing people with drone strikes for years and years now. They're far more aware of it than Americans. It's hard to see that there are many Pakistanis who are going to dislike America more for having actually gotten OBL. On the other hand, ending US missile strikes in Pakistan can only help.

brianpan 15y ago
I think russnewcomer was implying that if he was in a mansion, the Pakastani government must have known more about his whereabouts than they said they did. Which would potentially affect US-Pakastani diplomatic relations.
- marshray 15y ago
  if he was in a mansion, the Pakastani government must have known more about his whereabouts than they said they did That's certainly possible or even likely, but it's not like his name would have been on the utility bills either. Many of the homes in my town (not mine) have a finished basement...off the tax records. It'd be easier to hide a famous person in a big walled compound than a smaller dwelling.
- afterburner 15y ago
  It's no secret that many in the Pakistani intelligence community were overtly pro-Osama. It doesn't mean the whole country or government shared this feeling, nor that the intelligence community is still as pro-Osama (or at all given the jihadist attacks in Pakistan in the last few years). This kind of complicated situation has existed in Pakistan for a long time, and the US is fully aware of it. To a certain extent this kind of situation exists in most countries in the region.
- chopsueyar 15y ago
  Now that the 'target' has been neutralized, why should the US concern itself with US-Pakastani diplomatic relations?
russnewcomer 15y ago
I used to live over there, I know much more than most Americans that there have been drone strikes inside Pakistan for years. And U.S. missile strikes on non-military targets have to end, agreed. But if the news is true that the U.S. has known about this compound, that it was housing a major terrorist figure, and that the Pakistani Army (not ISI or rather, not just ISI) knew about it, then that's a major game-changer in U.S.-Pakistani governmental relations. Your average American and your average Pakistani don't know anything about each other. (for very general values of anything, clearly.)
- marshray 15y ago
  It's only a game-changer if one of the governments recently learned something new about the other. This idea that some in Pakistan's services support OBL and are not so helpful to the US isn't exactly news. The official US statement went something like "we got a tip back in August". Which means the important question is how long did each government know OBL was in there? Was Pakistan holding him for the right moment? At what level did they know they were holding him? When did the US learn about it with any confidence? My guess is that the US wouldn't be willing to wait on the info indefinitely given the risk that OBL would give them the slip again.
  - russnewcomer 15y ago
    The idea that ISI doesn't like the U.S. is nothing new, it's true. But the idea that the Pakistani military sheltered him (which is an easy conclusion if he was that close to the military academy) and that the U.S. then went in, made the kill, and then told Pakistan, that could be a major game changer in relations at the official level. So you are correct, as the details come out, it could turn out to be just country level business. But if it's more like what I described, I think it's a bigger deal for U.S.-Pakistan relations than when Bush forced Musharraf into letting the U.S. hit Afghanistan after 9/11.

noarchy 15y ago

I expect that some sort of proof of OBL's death will need to be provided. This is where showing the body comes into play. I don't know if they can get away with not showing it.

killerdark 15y ago
I haven't seen any new footage of Osama for at least 8 years. Unless I see the body I'm not going to believe that they killed him. Also, I want the body checked for marks of being frozen for a long period of time.
- noarchy 15y ago
  Given that we haven't seen anything new from OBL in so many years, it also means that we don't know how he aged, or the state of his health at the time of death (remember the rumours about kidney failure, for example?). Seeing his body may be quite a revelation, in many ways.
shrikant 15y ago
http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article1985036.ece?viewImage=1 http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article1985036.ec... A screen-grab from Express TV (a Pakistani news outlet) showing his body. I offer no commentary as to its vintage and authenticity, however.
- kouiskas 15y ago
  It's a photoshopped picture that's been around for years. On the original you can see how bad a copy/paste job it is: http://worldnewstweets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/osama-dead.jpg http://worldnewstweets.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/osama-...