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Is your argument "real-world cryptography isn't cryptography", or am I misunderstanding? EDIT: I can't reply due to rate-limiting, so here's my reply to your r

Is your argument "real-world cryptography isn't cryptography", or am I misunderstanding? EDIT: I can't reply due to rate-limiting, so here's my reply to your reply below: ----- > My argument is "real world cryptography" is a euphamism for security engineering for people who want to sound more badass. It's not a euphemism. Take a look at the accepted papers at the aptly named Real World Cryptography symposiums: https://rwc.iacr.org/2020/program.html https://rwc.iacr.org/2020/program.html Breaks on OCB2. Lattice attacks on TPMs. MPC research. Privacy-preserving telemetry. I'll accept that you may personally have only seen security engineering work under the guise of "real-world cryptography", but to call it a euphemism is erroneous. ----- > Well if someone wrote an article about the Poincaré conjecture calling it the "crown jewel" of math, and someone else said "actually I consider the primary goal of math to be in helping build low-cost housing and other practical issues," then they're talking about two different things. Both are math, but to say that the Poincaré conjecture isn't important to math because you use math primarily for different things is misleading. All of the proposals for homomorphic encryption I've seen to date (which, for transparency, were mostly in the realm of encrypted databases) don't provide any protection against chosen-ciphertext attacks. If [F]HE isn't IND-CCA2 secure, which is the minimum bar for encryption that should be used outside of academic settings, then calling it the crown jewel only serves to hype up a technology that will fail to protect users.

bawolff 6y ago
My argument is "real world cryptography" is a euphamism for security engineering for people who want to sound more badass. Making an app with encryption has about as much to do with cryptography as making a react app has to do with turing machines. Don't get me wrong, its important work, but lets not pretend its remotely the same type of work.
bccdee 6y ago
Well if someone wrote an article about the Poincaré conjecture calling it the "crown jewel" of math, and someone else said "actually I consider the primary goal of math to be in helping build low-cost housing and other practical issues," then they're talking about two different things. Both are math, but to say that the Poincaré conjecture isn't important to math because you use math primarily for different things is misleading.
Ar-Curunir 6y ago
Re: IND-CCA2 security for FHE; you can have constructions which achieve it in suitably (Eg from iO: https://cybersecurity.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s42400-018-0013-8 https://cybersecurity.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s424...). But in general the goal of FHE is at odds with CCA2 security. The latter requires non-malleability, but the point of FHE is to malleate the ciphertext in useful ways.
aruss 6y ago
FHE can be made IND-CCA secure in practice (i.e. for specific systems), please stop spreading misinformation. It's impossible in the general case for obvious reasons. Also, TFA isn't about FHE, it's about iO. I know and have worked with the organizers of RWC and they've done a lot of the kind of work that you're dismissing here (which would be like telling Diffie and Hellman to piss off in the 70s because public-key crypto isn't IND-CCA2 secure without additional assumptions).
- some_furry 6y ago
  > I know and have worked with the organizers of RWC and they've done a lot of the kind of work that you're dismissing here (which would be like telling Diffie and Hellman to piss off in the 70s because public-key crypto isn't IND-CCA2 secure without additional assumptions). I'm decrying the sensationalist writing in this news story, especially the headline, not dismissing anyone's work. Maybe should ask your RWC organizer friends if your take is proportional to what I'm doing.
  - aruss 6y ago
    I'm a former cryptographer and the headline and news story aren't sensationalist by any means. iO has been considered the "Crown Jewel" of cryptography (by cryptographers) ever since the 2013 iO candidate by Sahai, Waters, Gentry, et al, and Sahai/Waters' followup "How to Use Indistinguishability Obfuscation." From a cryptographer's perspective, being able to use iO is like having a superpower.

bawolff 6y ago

My argument is "real world cryptography" is a euphamism for security engineering for people who want to sound more badass. Making an app with encryption has about as much to do with cryptography as making a react app has to do with turing machines. Don't get me wrong, its important work, but lets not pretend its remotely the same type of work.

bccdee 6y ago

Well if someone wrote an article about the Poincaré conjecture calling it the "crown jewel" of math, and someone else said "actually I consider the primary goal of math to be in helping build low-cost housing and other practical issues," then they're talking about two different things. Both are math, but to say that the Poincaré conjecture isn't important to math because you use math primarily for different things is misleading.

Ar-Curunir 6y ago

Re: IND-CCA2 security for FHE; you can have constructions which achieve it in suitably (Eg from iO: https://cybersecurity.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s42400-018-0013-8 https://cybersecurity.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s424...). But in general the goal of FHE is at odds with CCA2 security. The latter requires non-malleability, but the point of FHE is to malleate the ciphertext in useful ways.

aruss 6y ago

FHE can be made IND-CCA secure in practice (i.e. for specific systems), please stop spreading misinformation. It's impossible in the general case for obvious reasons. Also, TFA isn't about FHE, it's about iO. I know and have worked with the organizers of RWC and they've done a lot of the kind of work that you're dismissing here (which would be like telling Diffie and Hellman to piss off in the 70s because public-key crypto isn't IND-CCA2 secure without additional assumptions).

some_furry 6y ago
> I know and have worked with the organizers of RWC and they've done a lot of the kind of work that you're dismissing here (which would be like telling Diffie and Hellman to piss off in the 70s because public-key crypto isn't IND-CCA2 secure without additional assumptions). I'm decrying the sensationalist writing in this news story, especially the headline, not dismissing anyone's work. Maybe should ask your RWC organizer friends if your take is proportional to what I'm doing.
- aruss 6y ago
  I'm a former cryptographer and the headline and news story aren't sensationalist by any means. iO has been considered the "Crown Jewel" of cryptography (by cryptographers) ever since the 2013 iO candidate by Sahai, Waters, Gentry, et al, and Sahai/Waters' followup "How to Use Indistinguishability Obfuscation." From a cryptographer's perspective, being able to use iO is like having a superpower.