7 ms·

So what did employees get?

Shpigford 6y ago
Depends on the employees and when they joined and if they exercised stock options or not. Big range from a few thousand to over $80,000.
- falcolas 6y ago
  $80k for how many years of work? Unless it’s one, I’m with the parent. I’m sure it’s all legal and ‘equitable’ according to the terms, but that’s peanuts of a return for somewhere between 4 and 7 years of work (based off a typical vesting schedule).
  - twox2 6y ago
    It's peanuts, but it's also REALITY. Few people get big windfalls working for startups as employees or even founders, but maybe you get a little bonus on top of your salary if there's an exit.
    - falcolas 6y ago
      Few employees may get a windfall in reality, but it doesn’t make it easier to see (nor does it justify the founder’s choices). Those employees are just as responsible for the company’s success as the founder is; it sucks to see them get shafted while the founder walks away with “fuck you” money.
      - twox2 6y ago
        Agreed, which is why it's good that this stuff is being shared. It's a datapoint to consider for those of us as we make career choices. But let's face it, if we are not founders, then we are just "the help".
        falcolas 6y ago
        And without “the help”, most founders (OP included) won’t make it to the sale. You can’t scale without “the help”. You can’t grow your market without “the help”. To badly paraphrase someone: “The idea isn’t what’s valuable, the implementation is.” That implementation is probably >90% thanks to “the help”.
        intev 6y ago
        There's a sense of entitlement here that's not sitting well with me. Don't get me wrong, I think employees of a "startup" deserve to get some sort of payout during a liquidation event, but I think that payout should be directly proportional to how much risk was assumed. Did they take a full standard salary? (Doesn't have to be SV 100k+ salaries, but standard for whatever is paid in their area). Did they do more than just code? etc etc By your logic, the butcher who worked for market wages in a meat processing company should get a big pay day because Nestle decided to buy them.
        falcolas 6y ago
        There's a vast difference between a butcher in a meat processing facility and a trained professional software developer who is responsible for creating/supporting/etc your software. As for entitlement, what entitles a founder to get ~50x the payout of their employees? Especially when they're also taking a SV level salary (not living in SV) and spending VC money.
        anonfornoreason 6y ago
        If you don't like it, become a founder yourself. For better or worse, the reality is that maybe 5% of developers out there have the stamina, the ingenuity, and the risk tolerance to build a business. Speaking anonymously, as a person who started a business ~12 years ago that employs 17 people. The stuff you have to deal with non stop as a founder who is developing product, working on HR, working on code, working on infrastructure, working on the career growth of your employees, all the while also engineering a business that can in theory run itself without continuous micro-management, is insane. Not a single one of our employees, even our high producing hustlers, do half what my founder and I do on a weekly basis. You have to be a master of everything, because the moment you aren't the lead expert in the room, someone gets you off the rails. Running a small software based business producing a customer facing product is insane. Add to it the last four years of "culture" growth leading all west coast tech workers to demand you add 10% overhead to your business to advance diversity, equity, and inclusivity, which in reality is just advocation for the right kind of politics to be brought into company culture, and you get a crazy stressful soup for any founder.
      - ericd 6y ago
        The founder walked away with the ability to buy one nice house or two crummy ones in Silicon Valley outright. The outrage!
  - marcinzm 6y ago
    None of his employees were there that long from what I can tell. The initial employees got laid off I think 4 years ago and were probably there 1-3 years (who knows if any bought out their equity). Current employees were there 1-3 years. Only two current engineers from what I can tell. It also depends on how much salary they were paid as many people will take cash over equity.
  - howlgarnish 6y ago
    No, it's an $80k bonus on top of the salaries they got for X years of work, and they're all still employed as well.
    - falcolas 6y ago
      We don’t currently know what their salaries are, but it’s pretty common for startup salaries to be 50-60% of normal salaries. The rest is typically LLC stock grants. It’s done this way with the promise of “when we sell” those stock holders will make bank. $80k isn’t ‘bank’. Especially if Baremetrics was following the startup-standard salaries.
      - pwinnski 6y ago
        All indications are that they were operating on a profit basis, not a growth basis, so I think it's a poor assumption that anybody was being paid a half-salary. As the post states, they're keeping their same compensation going forward, and all are choosing to stay, suggesting it's very satisfactory, and has been all along.
        FireBeyond 6y ago
        > All indications are that they were operating on a profit basis, not a growth basis From the founder himself: > We've had carryover losses for years, so from a tax perspective, there was no hit on either side. I realize that tax losses can differ from cash losses, but are you so sure about that?
        pwinnski 6y ago
        I mean, that's somewhat my point? They were not pursuing rapid growth. From the post: We’re also a company that has purposefully operated right around breakeven for years. So, unless you’re a “strategic acquistion” that throws acquistion multiples out the window, a slow-growth software company without lots of profits and a product that’s technically quite complex is ultimately just not going to get a huge multiple.
      - 6y ago
  - dbbk 6y ago
    I assume they also got paid in that time? You're making it sound like they've made a big sacrifice to (only) receive $80K at the end.
    - falcolas 6y ago
      So was the founder. SV level salary, per their words. And, as I've said elsewhere, startup salaries are rarely on par with the industry average. Working at a startup is typically sold as "you'll be paid less, but if we sell you'll get a payout to make up for it".
      - infinite8s 6y ago
        Are you sure that Baremetrics employees were sold that? If not then what is your issue?
      - robryan 6y ago
        It is pretty simple though, either they negotiated some stock based component to their compensation when they started and would be getting payout, or they didn't and they have been fully compensated by their salary.
    - icedchai 6y ago
      Most startup employees don't even get 80K. My last "exit" as an early employee was barely 20K. I doubt my current startup will be any better. I look at this as a "bonus" and not anything that was expected. The average startup employee will be lucky to get non-zero. If you want "returns", you're better off getting a stable, higher paying job and investing the excess in public markets. You have diversification and liquidity.
- ryansouza 6y ago
  Did you also take a salary during these years?
ceejayoz 6y ago
Salaries? https://baremetrics.com/blog/why-we-spent-250000 https://baremetrics.com/blog/why-we-spent-250000 > We aren’t spending Silicon Valley-amounts on salaries, but we’re certainly not on the low end. From the perspective wanting my team to love where they work and not have to worry about money, I’m very happy with the salaries everyone gets.
mattbee 6y ago
For a few years before I sold my small (UK) company, our employment contracts had a bonus clause in. It guaranteed a bonus payout from a pool of 5% of any future sale, based on a multiple of years service (up to 5) and salary at the time of sale. We sold for a similar sum and the bonuses were pretty small by SV standards - a bit more than £20,000 for a few, down to a few £00 for people who had just joined (maybe 50% annual salary for a few). Me & my partner had a fishy earnout clause over 12 months, but I got us pleasantly fired after 3. Half the staff got made redundant after 6, which I don't believe was a surprise to any of them. Nobody buys a business for its cosy culture, or sells one expecting it to stay. I think it's right for founders to be up-front about the likelihood and consequences of an exit, which is why we put it in our employment contract. But IMO more than 10% would be very generous for these ordinary private buyouts at 4-5× profit - no rocket ship valuations. At least that's clearer and more certain (and less tax efficient) than the kinds of games people play with options & rounds of funding. UK tech companies, salaries & employee expectations are a whole different world from what's discussed here. Maybe Baremetrics was closer to that world than SV. (In another life I wish I'd looked into what our old customers Torchbox did last year which is form an employee-owned trust and sell to that - https://torchbox.com/blog/not-selling-up/ https://torchbox.com/blog/not-selling-up/ )
Scottymeuk 6y ago
I got an incredible place to work for over 5 years, for an amazing company, and an even more amazing boss. I got paid well for it, and I also got a nice payout when the company sold. Don't worry about the employees :)

Depends on the employees and when they joined and if they exercised stock options or not. Big range from a few thousand to over $80,000.

falcolas 6y ago
$80k for how many years of work? Unless it’s one, I’m with the parent. I’m sure it’s all legal and ‘equitable’ according to the terms, but that’s peanuts of a return for somewhere between 4 and 7 years of work (based off a typical vesting schedule).
- twox2 6y ago
  It's peanuts, but it's also REALITY. Few people get big windfalls working for startups as employees or even founders, but maybe you get a little bonus on top of your salary if there's an exit.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    Few employees may get a windfall in reality, but it doesn’t make it easier to see (nor does it justify the founder’s choices). Those employees are just as responsible for the company’s success as the founder is; it sucks to see them get shafted while the founder walks away with “fuck you” money.
    - twox2 6y ago
      Agreed, which is why it's good that this stuff is being shared. It's a datapoint to consider for those of us as we make career choices. But let's face it, if we are not founders, then we are just "the help".
      - falcolas 6y ago
        And without “the help”, most founders (OP included) won’t make it to the sale. You can’t scale without “the help”. You can’t grow your market without “the help”. To badly paraphrase someone: “The idea isn’t what’s valuable, the implementation is.” That implementation is probably >90% thanks to “the help”.
        intev 6y ago
        There's a sense of entitlement here that's not sitting well with me. Don't get me wrong, I think employees of a "startup" deserve to get some sort of payout during a liquidation event, but I think that payout should be directly proportional to how much risk was assumed. Did they take a full standard salary? (Doesn't have to be SV 100k+ salaries, but standard for whatever is paid in their area). Did they do more than just code? etc etc By your logic, the butcher who worked for market wages in a meat processing company should get a big pay day because Nestle decided to buy them.
        falcolas 6y ago
        There's a vast difference between a butcher in a meat processing facility and a trained professional software developer who is responsible for creating/supporting/etc your software. As for entitlement, what entitles a founder to get ~50x the payout of their employees? Especially when they're also taking a SV level salary (not living in SV) and spending VC money.
        anonfornoreason 6y ago
        If you don't like it, become a founder yourself. For better or worse, the reality is that maybe 5% of developers out there have the stamina, the ingenuity, and the risk tolerance to build a business. Speaking anonymously, as a person who started a business ~12 years ago that employs 17 people. The stuff you have to deal with non stop as a founder who is developing product, working on HR, working on code, working on infrastructure, working on the career growth of your employees, all the while also engineering a business that can in theory run itself without continuous micro-management, is insane. Not a single one of our employees, even our high producing hustlers, do half what my founder and I do on a weekly basis. You have to be a master of everything, because the moment you aren't the lead expert in the room, someone gets you off the rails. Running a small software based business producing a customer facing product is insane. Add to it the last four years of "culture" growth leading all west coast tech workers to demand you add 10% overhead to your business to advance diversity, equity, and inclusivity, which in reality is just advocation for the right kind of politics to be brought into company culture, and you get a crazy stressful soup for any founder.
    - ericd 6y ago
      The founder walked away with the ability to buy one nice house or two crummy ones in Silicon Valley outright. The outrage!
- marcinzm 6y ago
  None of his employees were there that long from what I can tell. The initial employees got laid off I think 4 years ago and were probably there 1-3 years (who knows if any bought out their equity). Current employees were there 1-3 years. Only two current engineers from what I can tell. It also depends on how much salary they were paid as many people will take cash over equity.
- howlgarnish 6y ago
  No, it's an $80k bonus on top of the salaries they got for X years of work, and they're all still employed as well.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    We don’t currently know what their salaries are, but it’s pretty common for startup salaries to be 50-60% of normal salaries. The rest is typically LLC stock grants. It’s done this way with the promise of “when we sell” those stock holders will make bank. $80k isn’t ‘bank’. Especially if Baremetrics was following the startup-standard salaries.
    - pwinnski 6y ago
      All indications are that they were operating on a profit basis, not a growth basis, so I think it's a poor assumption that anybody was being paid a half-salary. As the post states, they're keeping their same compensation going forward, and all are choosing to stay, suggesting it's very satisfactory, and has been all along.
      - FireBeyond 6y ago
        > All indications are that they were operating on a profit basis, not a growth basis From the founder himself: > We've had carryover losses for years, so from a tax perspective, there was no hit on either side. I realize that tax losses can differ from cash losses, but are you so sure about that?
        pwinnski 6y ago
        I mean, that's somewhat my point? They were not pursuing rapid growth. From the post: We’re also a company that has purposefully operated right around breakeven for years. So, unless you’re a “strategic acquistion” that throws acquistion multiples out the window, a slow-growth software company without lots of profits and a product that’s technically quite complex is ultimately just not going to get a huge multiple.
    - 6y ago
- dbbk 6y ago
  I assume they also got paid in that time? You're making it sound like they've made a big sacrifice to (only) receive $80K at the end.
  - falcolas 6y ago
    So was the founder. SV level salary, per their words. And, as I've said elsewhere, startup salaries are rarely on par with the industry average. Working at a startup is typically sold as "you'll be paid less, but if we sell you'll get a payout to make up for it".
    - infinite8s 6y ago
      Are you sure that Baremetrics employees were sold that? If not then what is your issue?
    - robryan 6y ago
      It is pretty simple though, either they negotiated some stock based component to their compensation when they started and would be getting payout, or they didn't and they have been fully compensated by their salary.
  - icedchai 6y ago
    Most startup employees don't even get 80K. My last "exit" as an early employee was barely 20K. I doubt my current startup will be any better. I look at this as a "bonus" and not anything that was expected. The average startup employee will be lucky to get non-zero. If you want "returns", you're better off getting a stable, higher paying job and investing the excess in public markets. You have diversification and liquidity.
ryansouza 6y ago
Did you also take a salary during these years?

ceejayoz 6y ago

Salaries? https://baremetrics.com/blog/why-we-spent-250000 https://baremetrics.com/blog/why-we-spent-250000 > We aren’t spending Silicon Valley-amounts on salaries, but we’re certainly not on the low end. From the perspective wanting my team to love where they work and not have to worry about money, I’m very happy with the salaries everyone gets.

mattbee 6y ago

For a few years before I sold my small (UK) company, our employment contracts had a bonus clause in. It guaranteed a bonus payout from a pool of 5% of any future sale, based on a multiple of years service (up to 5) and salary at the time of sale. We sold for a similar sum and the bonuses were pretty small by SV standards - a bit more than £20,000 for a few, down to a few £00 for people who had just joined (maybe 50% annual salary for a few). Me & my partner had a fishy earnout clause over 12 months, but I got us pleasantly fired after 3. Half the staff got made redundant after 6, which I don't believe was a surprise to any of them. Nobody buys a business for its cosy culture, or sells one expecting it to stay. I think it's right for founders to be up-front about the likelihood and consequences of an exit, which is why we put it in our employment contract. But IMO more than 10% would be very generous for these ordinary private buyouts at 4-5× profit - no rocket ship valuations. At least that's clearer and more certain (and less tax efficient) than the kinds of games people play with options & rounds of funding. UK tech companies, salaries & employee expectations are a whole different world from what's discussed here. Maybe Baremetrics was closer to that world than SV. (In another life I wish I'd looked into what our old customers Torchbox did last year which is form an employee-owned trust and sell to that - https://torchbox.com/blog/not-selling-up/ https://torchbox.com/blog/not-selling-up/ )

Scottymeuk 6y ago

I got an incredible place to work for over 5 years, for an amazing company, and an even more amazing boss. I got paid well for it, and I also got a nice payout when the company sold. Don't worry about the employees :)