4 ms·

You are missing the point. The games do not work. As you said some install Kernel Level drivers (I believe this is a Ring-0 but I am not an expert in such thin

You are missing the point. The games do not work. As you said some install Kernel Level drivers (I believe this is a Ring-0 but I am not an expert in such things) as a Anti-cheat mechanism. These do not work with Wine/Proton. e.g. Doom Eternal worked fine until the first patch and then didn't once the anti-cheat was installed (for the non-existant multiplayer community). Then they removed it only after the fanbase heavily downvoted the game on the steam store and constantly bitched to bethesda about it. However most companies bet on most players just putting up with the bullshit to play the game and they are normally right. I don't drop £700 on a GPU to worry about software freedoms. I buy it to play games. If I get fed up of messing about (I am the guy that runs unironically runs Arch on my desktop when not gaming and OpenBSD on my office laptop), the vast majority of players just won't even bother. The best solution I've found is GPU passthrough (which a friend of mine has setup and I am going to try in the coming weeks) but that has it caveats and tbh Dual booting and just putting up with BS is just easier than trying to fight it.

oliwarner 6y ago
Those games don't work. And it's important to note that occasionally those games also don't work for Windows users. New drivers, strange setups, perfectly legitimate background software, they've all upset the boat at some point, and will again in the future. Trusted Clients are fragile beasts. It was Denuvo's Anti-Cheat and Anti-Tamper that were added retrospectively to Doom Eternal. Denuvo has a pretty awful track record even on Windows, so seeing its quick removal wasn't too surprising. If anything, the experience was positive to see a large publisher acknowledge Linux compatibility. Games companies can keep betting on the worst anti-cheat mechanisms, I'll keep gaming on Linux thanks. I happily trade a few frames and titles to not use Windows. In my eyes, I'm better for it. If I wanted a locked down system, I'd buy a console.
- forest_dweller 6y ago
  Well they defintely don't work on Linux which is the point and I definetely can't play them. I personally left a negative review and removed the game until the patch was removed. Whether the anti-cheat should be there isn't the issue. The issue is "does this stop the game from running on Linux". The answer was yes it does. For a lot of people the only reason they buy a PC is to play games. So you might be okay saying "well I don't care about those titles" but for a lot of people those big titles with shitty DRM is literally the reason they bought the PC in the first place and saying the concern was absurd is just incorrect.
  - oliwarner 6y ago
    I'm not trying to give voice to every gamer, just pointing out that there's more to gaming than games that rely on this crap, and that some of us accept that. Life is full of quasi-moral choices like this. You can choose to support hardware that supports your platform. You can choose to buy local rather than carrots flown in from South Africa; wtf Waitrose! You can donate your time to helping people hoping it makes the world slightly better. Not playing games that go out of their way to force me to run Windows is my moral stand here. I get that it's not for you, and it's not for a lot of other Windows gamers, and it might even be stopping the Year of the Linux Desktop... But my view is this too shall pass. Trusted Clients are bound to fail, as they have again and again and again. They're running out of options. Engines with action integrity checks are the future. And e-sports will move to the cloud because that just makes sense for everybody involved.
    - forest_dweller 6y ago
      > I'm not trying to give voice to every gamer, just pointing out that there's more to gaming than games that rely on this crap, and that some of us accept that. That wasn't what I was taking umbrage with. You dismissing the concerns as absurd was what I was taking umbrage with. > Life is full of quasi-moral choices like this. Yes understand this. > You can choose to support hardware that supports your platform. You can choose to buy local rather than carrots flown in from South Africa; wtf Waitrose! You can donate your time to helping people hoping it makes the world slightly better. I don't wish to be rude but you are being so overly dramatic. > Not playing games that go out of their way to force me to run Windows is my moral stand here. I get that it's not for you, and it's not for a lot of other Windows gamers, and it might even be stopping the Year of the Linux Desktop... The dramatic language aside. Yes that is your choice. However a lot of games at the moment require this, so proton as good as it is won't run these games and that is a deal breaker for many people. Whether or not you continue with your moral crusade will make no difference to the current reality. As for the year of the Linux desktop. It is never going to happen. I've been using alternative Operating systems such as Lnux for about 17 years. I've tried 21 XFCE, Gnome, KDE, Cinnamon, mucked about with windows managers and there is always some really irritating bugs that never get resolved and have been there for years on end. That combined with almost every Linux distribution kinda breaking itself as time goes on and requiring you to drop to the terminal to fix it (I have used many distros over the years). > But my view is this too shall pass. Trusted Clients are bound to fail, as they have again and again and again. They're running out of options. Engines with action integrity checks are the future. And e-sports will move to the cloud because that just makes sense for everybody involved. I doubt it. It is a good enough solution. These cloud based services have bunch of input latency which is just unacceptable. Many of the large games before covid happened over lan in stadiums, once covid is over we will go back to this. I suspect with esports I think cheating will be discovered by observing replays at the higher levels. (this already happens in the speed running community).
- Cloudef 6y ago
  This is a very good comment. See this thread how Riot basically dictates what people are allowed to run or install on their system just to run a stupid game. https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/g3yqxd/psa_riot_vanguard_updated_today_and_blocks/fnupgsd/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/g3yqxd/psa_riot_v... Leave moderation to players, it's way more effective than any sort of client side cheat detection.
Cloudef 6y ago
People are insane to begin with to install some rootkit on their system just to play a game.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  To some people, the priority is the game and they couldn't care less about the borderline malware required to do so.
- ss248 6y ago
  It's trivial (if you know what you are doing) to load kernel drivers from userspace by abusing windows bugs. If you trust a program to run in userspace, then it already has all the keys to the kingdom. Welcome to windows security.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    Strange, I can do the same in Linux. Welcome to GNU/Linux security.
- swebs 6y ago
  Most people installing these games don't even know what a rootkit is.
- forest_dweller 6y ago
  A lot of the times you won't know unless you go digging through review comments or people have made a fuss over it.
gpderetta 6y ago
passthrough and the required VM also has issues with many anticheat, right?
- Kaze404 6y ago
  Not in my experience. I haven't run into a game that hasn't worked on my PCI pass-through setup.
  - gpderetta 6y ago
    Nice. I have always wanted to try passthrough, but with proton working so well I never had a need. Worth trying for a few multiplier games I guess.
- Cloudef 6y ago
  Many anti-cheat rootkits detect VM and blocks you.

oliwarner 6y ago

Those games don't work. And it's important to note that occasionally those games also don't work for Windows users. New drivers, strange setups, perfectly legitimate background software, they've all upset the boat at some point, and will again in the future. Trusted Clients are fragile beasts. It was Denuvo's Anti-Cheat and Anti-Tamper that were added retrospectively to Doom Eternal. Denuvo has a pretty awful track record even on Windows, so seeing its quick removal wasn't too surprising. If anything, the experience was positive to see a large publisher acknowledge Linux compatibility. Games companies can keep betting on the worst anti-cheat mechanisms, I'll keep gaming on Linux thanks. I happily trade a few frames and titles to not use Windows. In my eyes, I'm better for it. If I wanted a locked down system, I'd buy a console.

forest_dweller 6y ago
Well they defintely don't work on Linux which is the point and I definetely can't play them. I personally left a negative review and removed the game until the patch was removed. Whether the anti-cheat should be there isn't the issue. The issue is "does this stop the game from running on Linux". The answer was yes it does. For a lot of people the only reason they buy a PC is to play games. So you might be okay saying "well I don't care about those titles" but for a lot of people those big titles with shitty DRM is literally the reason they bought the PC in the first place and saying the concern was absurd is just incorrect.
- oliwarner 6y ago
  I'm not trying to give voice to every gamer, just pointing out that there's more to gaming than games that rely on this crap, and that some of us accept that. Life is full of quasi-moral choices like this. You can choose to support hardware that supports your platform. You can choose to buy local rather than carrots flown in from South Africa; wtf Waitrose! You can donate your time to helping people hoping it makes the world slightly better. Not playing games that go out of their way to force me to run Windows is my moral stand here. I get that it's not for you, and it's not for a lot of other Windows gamers, and it might even be stopping the Year of the Linux Desktop... But my view is this too shall pass. Trusted Clients are bound to fail, as they have again and again and again. They're running out of options. Engines with action integrity checks are the future. And e-sports will move to the cloud because that just makes sense for everybody involved.
  - forest_dweller 6y ago
    > I'm not trying to give voice to every gamer, just pointing out that there's more to gaming than games that rely on this crap, and that some of us accept that. That wasn't what I was taking umbrage with. You dismissing the concerns as absurd was what I was taking umbrage with. > Life is full of quasi-moral choices like this. Yes understand this. > You can choose to support hardware that supports your platform. You can choose to buy local rather than carrots flown in from South Africa; wtf Waitrose! You can donate your time to helping people hoping it makes the world slightly better. I don't wish to be rude but you are being so overly dramatic. > Not playing games that go out of their way to force me to run Windows is my moral stand here. I get that it's not for you, and it's not for a lot of other Windows gamers, and it might even be stopping the Year of the Linux Desktop... The dramatic language aside. Yes that is your choice. However a lot of games at the moment require this, so proton as good as it is won't run these games and that is a deal breaker for many people. Whether or not you continue with your moral crusade will make no difference to the current reality. As for the year of the Linux desktop. It is never going to happen. I've been using alternative Operating systems such as Lnux for about 17 years. I've tried 21 XFCE, Gnome, KDE, Cinnamon, mucked about with windows managers and there is always some really irritating bugs that never get resolved and have been there for years on end. That combined with almost every Linux distribution kinda breaking itself as time goes on and requiring you to drop to the terminal to fix it (I have used many distros over the years). > But my view is this too shall pass. Trusted Clients are bound to fail, as they have again and again and again. They're running out of options. Engines with action integrity checks are the future. And e-sports will move to the cloud because that just makes sense for everybody involved. I doubt it. It is a good enough solution. These cloud based services have bunch of input latency which is just unacceptable. Many of the large games before covid happened over lan in stadiums, once covid is over we will go back to this. I suspect with esports I think cheating will be discovered by observing replays at the higher levels. (this already happens in the speed running community).
Cloudef 6y ago
This is a very good comment. See this thread how Riot basically dictates what people are allowed to run or install on their system just to run a stupid game. https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/g3yqxd/psa_riot_vanguard_updated_today_and_blocks/fnupgsd/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/VALORANT/comments/g3yqxd/psa_riot_v... Leave moderation to players, it's way more effective than any sort of client side cheat detection.

Cloudef 6y ago

People are insane to begin with to install some rootkit on their system just to play a game.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
To some people, the priority is the game and they couldn't care less about the borderline malware required to do so.
ss248 6y ago
It's trivial (if you know what you are doing) to load kernel drivers from userspace by abusing windows bugs. If you trust a program to run in userspace, then it already has all the keys to the kingdom. Welcome to windows security.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  Strange, I can do the same in Linux. Welcome to GNU/Linux security.
swebs 6y ago
Most people installing these games don't even know what a rootkit is.
forest_dweller 6y ago
A lot of the times you won't know unless you go digging through review comments or people have made a fuss over it.

gpderetta 6y ago

passthrough and the required VM also has issues with many anticheat, right?

Kaze404 6y ago
Not in my experience. I haven't run into a game that hasn't worked on my PCI pass-through setup.
- gpderetta 6y ago
  Nice. I have always wanted to try passthrough, but with proton working so well I never had a need. Worth trying for a few multiplier games I guess.
Cloudef 6y ago
Many anti-cheat rootkits detect VM and blocks you.