6 ms·

Is that really relevant? Plenty of technological breakthroughs are made by immigrants/children of immigrants, and everyone on this site already knows this.

nefitty 6y ago
I think the point is that it should be mentioned in the media in general, not specifically here on HN.
- jgehring 6y ago
  Indeed. For bad news, e.g. crime, the (German) media takes great care to mention whether suspects or convicts are immigrants or of direct immigrant descent. Attaching this information to good news is done less frequently but would be required to paint a more realistic picture.
  - arethuza 6y ago
    Fear of Turkey joining the EU was a significant factor in the Brexit campaign: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/dominic-cummings-how-the-brexit-referendum-was-won https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/dominic-cummings-how-the...
    - agustif 6y ago
      And now with Turkey vs France thingy, it seems pretty unreasonable to think that turkey would really join right? Don't member states have veto powers?
      - arethuza 6y ago
        "Turkey has been moving further away from the European Union. Turkey’s accession negotiations have therefore effectively come to a standstill and no further chapters can be considered for opening or closing and no further work towards the modernisation of the EU-Turkey Customs Union is foreseen." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_Eur...
  - davrosthedalek 6y ago
    That is news to me. German police and media normally go to great length not to mention names/personal information of suspects (and victims), a crass difference to the US.
    - mschuster91 6y ago
      Until 2017 this actually was a rule (not a legally binding, just the "honor code") for media, but this got changed after the AfD and other Nazis whined for years that police and media would not "tell the truth" about migrant crimes, "suppress" or "hide" them (https://www.migazin.de/2017/03/24/presserat-aendert-richtlinie-zur-herkunftsnennung-bei-taetern/ https://www.migazin.de/2017/03/24/presserat-aendert-richtlin...). A very sad day for our society.
      - davrosthedalek 6y ago
        Indeed. Every time the AfD is mentioned, I have to remember this: https://politicalbeauty.de/mahnmal.html https://politicalbeauty.de/mahnmal.html, and it makes it a little bit better.
      - choko 6y ago
        Are you saying that facts should be suppressed because someone might use them the wrong way? Serious question.
        davrosthedalek 6y ago
        Well, your personal information are facts too. Would you like them posted? As long as the crimes are only alleged, not proven, there is no question to me that the interest of the people at large is second to the privacy protection of the suspects.
        mschuster91 6y ago
        Journalism should report the relevant facts to a case. And the nationality/ethnicity/skin color rarely is a relevant fact in a criminal case, with the notable exception of racist-motivated or ethnic conflict (e.g. Kurds vs Turks) crimes. For "everyday" crimes, think of pub brawls, petty theft, robberies, sexual misconduct of all forms, the ethnicity is absolutely irrelevant and its mention by police/media is only likely to further racial hatred.
- lorenzhs 6y ago
  That the initial comment was downvoted tells me that it should be mentioned more on HN, too, to be honest. It's quite disappointing to see.
akie 6y ago
Yeah it's extremely relevant. Has never been more relevant. You have the American vice-president of a thoroughly racist administration claiming credit for this vaccine on Twitter, even though it was children of migrant workers in another country who actually did the science and all of the hard work. Credit where credit is due, especially since the ones who handed society this big win are from a marginalized and often unduly criticized background.
tinus_hn 6y ago
It’s as relevant as a black US president. Or a female Vice President.
- cblconfederate 6y ago
  aka identity politics
  - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
    It helps to counteract preconceptions and prejudices about certain groups.
  - tinus_hn 6y ago
    Here’s the story of a lady inspired by the character of lt. Uhura on the original Star Trek: https://today.duke.edu/2013/10/maejemison https://today.duke.edu/2013/10/maejemison In the future there are going to be similar stories about people inspired by president Obama and Vice President Harris because these models show them how far they can go. It’s not about identity politics, it’s about showing people they can escape the box society appears to capture them in.
    - cblconfederate 6y ago
      There are plenty of successful german Turks though, to the point where such propaganda might have the reverse effect: why would anyone assume they can't escape.
usrusr 6y ago
The most visible group of Turkish immigrants are people whose ancestors came from underdeveloped backwaters of Turkey and who have effectively formed a bit of a conservative time capsule. When progressive urban Turks happen to come to Germany (this is rare) that group seems quite alien to them. Surely not as alien as Amish would seem to modern day Swiss or Germans (the German Turkish time capsule is much younger and clearly doesn't rule out technology consumption), but it's the same kind of disconnect. That group is highly visible because all the others basically blend in with the natives, which creates the illusion that they are representative of all Turks. That's why pointing out successful individuals who are clear counterexamples to the antiprogressive time capsule is highly relevant. It can help natives to stop assuming that everybody with a Turkish sounding name is a time capsule victim until proven otherwise and it can inspire those at risk of growing up to be the next generation of time capsuleers.

nefitty 6y ago

I think the point is that it should be mentioned in the media in general, not specifically here on HN.

jgehring 6y ago
Indeed. For bad news, e.g. crime, the (German) media takes great care to mention whether suspects or convicts are immigrants or of direct immigrant descent. Attaching this information to good news is done less frequently but would be required to paint a more realistic picture.
- arethuza 6y ago
  Fear of Turkey joining the EU was a significant factor in the Brexit campaign: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/dominic-cummings-how-the-brexit-referendum-was-won https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/dominic-cummings-how-the...
  - agustif 6y ago
    And now with Turkey vs France thingy, it seems pretty unreasonable to think that turkey would really join right? Don't member states have veto powers?
    - arethuza 6y ago
      "Turkey has been moving further away from the European Union. Turkey’s accession negotiations have therefore effectively come to a standstill and no further chapters can be considered for opening or closing and no further work towards the modernisation of the EU-Turkey Customs Union is foreseen." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_Eur...
- davrosthedalek 6y ago
  That is news to me. German police and media normally go to great length not to mention names/personal information of suspects (and victims), a crass difference to the US.
  - mschuster91 6y ago
    Until 2017 this actually was a rule (not a legally binding, just the "honor code") for media, but this got changed after the AfD and other Nazis whined for years that police and media would not "tell the truth" about migrant crimes, "suppress" or "hide" them (https://www.migazin.de/2017/03/24/presserat-aendert-richtlinie-zur-herkunftsnennung-bei-taetern/ https://www.migazin.de/2017/03/24/presserat-aendert-richtlin...). A very sad day for our society.
    - davrosthedalek 6y ago
      Indeed. Every time the AfD is mentioned, I have to remember this: https://politicalbeauty.de/mahnmal.html https://politicalbeauty.de/mahnmal.html, and it makes it a little bit better.
    - choko 6y ago
      Are you saying that facts should be suppressed because someone might use them the wrong way? Serious question.
      - davrosthedalek 6y ago
        Well, your personal information are facts too. Would you like them posted? As long as the crimes are only alleged, not proven, there is no question to me that the interest of the people at large is second to the privacy protection of the suspects.
      - mschuster91 6y ago
        Journalism should report the relevant facts to a case. And the nationality/ethnicity/skin color rarely is a relevant fact in a criminal case, with the notable exception of racist-motivated or ethnic conflict (e.g. Kurds vs Turks) crimes. For "everyday" crimes, think of pub brawls, petty theft, robberies, sexual misconduct of all forms, the ethnicity is absolutely irrelevant and its mention by police/media is only likely to further racial hatred.
lorenzhs 6y ago
That the initial comment was downvoted tells me that it should be mentioned more on HN, too, to be honest. It's quite disappointing to see.

akie 6y ago

Yeah it's extremely relevant. Has never been more relevant. You have the American vice-president of a thoroughly racist administration claiming credit for this vaccine on Twitter, even though it was children of migrant workers in another country who actually did the science and all of the hard work. Credit where credit is due, especially since the ones who handed society this big win are from a marginalized and often unduly criticized background.

tinus_hn 6y ago

It’s as relevant as a black US president. Or a female Vice President.

cblconfederate 6y ago
aka identity politics
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  It helps to counteract preconceptions and prejudices about certain groups.
- tinus_hn 6y ago
  Here’s the story of a lady inspired by the character of lt. Uhura on the original Star Trek: https://today.duke.edu/2013/10/maejemison https://today.duke.edu/2013/10/maejemison In the future there are going to be similar stories about people inspired by president Obama and Vice President Harris because these models show them how far they can go. It’s not about identity politics, it’s about showing people they can escape the box society appears to capture them in.
  - cblconfederate 6y ago
    There are plenty of successful german Turks though, to the point where such propaganda might have the reverse effect: why would anyone assume they can't escape.

usrusr 6y ago

The most visible group of Turkish immigrants are people whose ancestors came from underdeveloped backwaters of Turkey and who have effectively formed a bit of a conservative time capsule. When progressive urban Turks happen to come to Germany (this is rare) that group seems quite alien to them. Surely not as alien as Amish would seem to modern day Swiss or Germans (the German Turkish time capsule is much younger and clearly doesn't rule out technology consumption), but it's the same kind of disconnect. That group is highly visible because all the others basically blend in with the natives, which creates the illusion that they are representative of all Turks. That's why pointing out successful individuals who are clear counterexamples to the antiprogressive time capsule is highly relevant. It can help natives to stop assuming that everybody with a Turkish sounding name is a time capsule victim until proven otherwise and it can inspire those at risk of growing up to be the next generation of time capsuleers.