5 ms·

I’ll just point out: if you’re a free speech purist, you are perfectly OK with this. Twitter isn’t removing these tweets, just adding their own messages. That

by jmull 6y ago

I’ll just point out: if you’re a free speech purist, you are perfectly OK with this. Twitter isn’t removing these tweets, just adding their own messages. That is, they are responding to free speech with their own free speech. If they use this feature on high-profile figures it’s even better: free speech to authority.

illuminati1911 6y ago
Logical fallacy. Twitter is not free speech system to begin with so ”free speech” purists are not obligated to be ok with this unless the whole platform is based on free speech. In that kind of system any user would be able to prompt any popup for any user when they are about to like any tweet. Now only twitter has that power.
betwixthewires 6y ago
That's some gymnastics if I've ever seen it.
- jmull 6y ago
  Please explain.
  - lhnz 6y ago
    Why would a free-speech "purist" be okay with authorities having special abilities to append emphasized messages below other messages? People that care deeply about free-speech tend to want a level playing ground for every person in a discussion, and to not have platforms that have a centralised bias for or against different messages or identities. It's disingenuous to tell a bunch of people with principles towards discussions happening on a relatively level-playing ground ("fairness") that what they really wanted all along was a central authority fact-checking certain perspectives. Free-speech is mainly about avoiding situations in which there is an authoritarian bias towards the speech of one group over another. It doesn't matter whether that bias is due to deletion, banning, shadow-banning, algorithmic/statistical manipulation, editorial notes, etc. All of these things are forms of bias that the powerful can use in an attempt to control the speech of others. The thing is, most of us aren't purists at all. Many agree that there should be some limits to free speech, and that certain things like calls to violence, dehumanisation of people, disinformation that doesn't get corrected until too late, and so on, are big issues for democratic society. However, it would be better if we could discuss this, rather than having our position straw-manned into something contrary to its inner morality/logic, and then getting treated as if we are all strict adherents to this as opposed to practical people that try to balance it with other things.
    - jmull 6y ago
      If Twitter is an “authority”, what is the President of the United States? Twitter has a platform whose design inherently amplifies the voices of high-profile people, and consequently dampens the voices of the non-high-profile. Why be OK with that, and yet somehow not be OK with minor design adjustments that provide a small, partial, counterweight? You cast this as a “special ability” but isn’t this simply the design of the platform, as decided by the people who control the platform, and whose job it is to decide what the platform is? And how is a platform design dictated by someone else for their own benefit somehow more valid? Perhaps you don’t know, but as President, Trump is given special privileges on Twitter, and is exempt from virtually all the normal TOS. By basic fairness in free speech principles, you would be arguing that he be held to the same standard as everyone else. That would have had gotten him banned from Twitter a long time ago. Anyway, just to clear your thinking, think of what a truly fair speech platform would be like. It would, e.g., ensure that any message I or you posted would be just as prominent as one Trump or other high-profile person posted. Of course, such platforms aren’t of interest to high-profile people. They want a platform like Twitter where the rules are tilted in their favor. The only thing being argued about here is how massively in their favor the platform is made. That’s fine, but it doesn’t have anything to do with free speech. You express a desire for a relatively level playing field, but if that’s the case, why even talk about Twitter, which has never been even remotely about that? > straw-manned I’m afraid you’re getting lost here. I’m not straw-manning you or anyone. You can have any stance you want. It’s just up to you to express it.
      - lhnz 6y ago
        > Anyway, just to clear your thinking, Don't you think that this comes across as quite arrogant? I wrote quite clearly that most people interested in free-speech aren't purists and might expect "limits to free speech" in certain circumstances, but that we'd like to discuss what this means with respect to the actual goal of a relatively level playing field for discussion. You tell me that you've not strawmanned anybody, but within your first comment you wrote that "if you're a free speech purist you are OK with [Twitter] responding to free speech with their own free speech". This suggests that free speech is merely about being able to speak and that advocates would be happy for their speech to be stymied in other ways - and, in fact, pleased when all their speech has mandatory notices about its invalidity. Clearly this is not what free-speech advocates believe, so it certainly is straw-manning or as another put "some gymnastics". Apart from that, the rest of what you said is relatively coherent and you did at least try to unpack the platform as-is. It is true that the President of the United States is also an authority. However, are they an authority of Twitter? Well, they can't ban people or add editorial notes below the tweets of their opponents so perhaps not. You also mention that "Trump is given special privileges on Twitter, and is exempt from virtually all the normal TOS", so shouldn't he be held to the same standard as everyone else? Well, yes. Why not? As for whether new ways of adding editorial comment below people's tweets are "special abilities" I think so (because normal users can't do this). However, I agree that Twitter was never "a free speech platform" and that by design it always amplified particular voices via crowd-sourcing. But, there is a difference between crowd-sourced amplification and centralised editorial oversight/amplification. While Twitter has "never been even remotely about [free speech]" the new features are clearly changing what it is from a crowd-sourced amplification platform to a platform with significant editorial oversight. Is it better for there to be a centralised bias for or against different messages or identities or is it better for the bias to be crowd-sourced? Is the editorial oversight US-centric only? Who gets this power (e.g. governments, institutions, HR, etc)? When should there be limits to free speech? When some speech needs to be inhibited should this be done in the open or behind closed doors? Should infractions be explained? Does anybody get to break the rules? I and many others would like if these questions could be answered by the big social networks. It's annoying when people simplify all of this into some primitive desire for everybody to be able to say whatever and have their voice amplified by a platform, since that is not what I am saying.
rbecker 6y ago
Do you think it's possible to hold an opinion other than "this should be illegal" and "this is OK"? Do you think even free speech purists can see the danger in allowing too much influence concentrated in too few hands?
kanox 6y ago
> They are responding to free speech with their own free speech. Yes, this is unironically a good thing. It means that Twitter is acting as a publisher rather than a neutral channel but nobody is willing to pretend that corporations are neutral anyway.

by jmull 6y ago

illuminati1911 6y ago

Logical fallacy. Twitter is not free speech system to begin with so ”free speech” purists are not obligated to be ok with this unless the whole platform is based on free speech. In that kind of system any user would be able to prompt any popup for any user when they are about to like any tweet. Now only twitter has that power.

betwixthewires 6y ago

That's some gymnastics if I've ever seen it.

jmull 6y ago
Please explain.
- lhnz 6y ago
  Why would a free-speech "purist" be okay with authorities having special abilities to append emphasized messages below other messages? People that care deeply about free-speech tend to want a level playing ground for every person in a discussion, and to not have platforms that have a centralised bias for or against different messages or identities. It's disingenuous to tell a bunch of people with principles towards discussions happening on a relatively level-playing ground ("fairness") that what they really wanted all along was a central authority fact-checking certain perspectives. Free-speech is mainly about avoiding situations in which there is an authoritarian bias towards the speech of one group over another. It doesn't matter whether that bias is due to deletion, banning, shadow-banning, algorithmic/statistical manipulation, editorial notes, etc. All of these things are forms of bias that the powerful can use in an attempt to control the speech of others. The thing is, most of us aren't purists at all. Many agree that there should be some limits to free speech, and that certain things like calls to violence, dehumanisation of people, disinformation that doesn't get corrected until too late, and so on, are big issues for democratic society. However, it would be better if we could discuss this, rather than having our position straw-manned into something contrary to its inner morality/logic, and then getting treated as if we are all strict adherents to this as opposed to practical people that try to balance it with other things.
  - jmull 6y ago
    If Twitter is an “authority”, what is the President of the United States? Twitter has a platform whose design inherently amplifies the voices of high-profile people, and consequently dampens the voices of the non-high-profile. Why be OK with that, and yet somehow not be OK with minor design adjustments that provide a small, partial, counterweight? You cast this as a “special ability” but isn’t this simply the design of the platform, as decided by the people who control the platform, and whose job it is to decide what the platform is? And how is a platform design dictated by someone else for their own benefit somehow more valid? Perhaps you don’t know, but as President, Trump is given special privileges on Twitter, and is exempt from virtually all the normal TOS. By basic fairness in free speech principles, you would be arguing that he be held to the same standard as everyone else. That would have had gotten him banned from Twitter a long time ago. Anyway, just to clear your thinking, think of what a truly fair speech platform would be like. It would, e.g., ensure that any message I or you posted would be just as prominent as one Trump or other high-profile person posted. Of course, such platforms aren’t of interest to high-profile people. They want a platform like Twitter where the rules are tilted in their favor. The only thing being argued about here is how massively in their favor the platform is made. That’s fine, but it doesn’t have anything to do with free speech. You express a desire for a relatively level playing field, but if that’s the case, why even talk about Twitter, which has never been even remotely about that? > straw-manned I’m afraid you’re getting lost here. I’m not straw-manning you or anyone. You can have any stance you want. It’s just up to you to express it.
    - lhnz 6y ago
      > Anyway, just to clear your thinking, Don't you think that this comes across as quite arrogant? I wrote quite clearly that most people interested in free-speech aren't purists and might expect "limits to free speech" in certain circumstances, but that we'd like to discuss what this means with respect to the actual goal of a relatively level playing field for discussion. You tell me that you've not strawmanned anybody, but within your first comment you wrote that "if you're a free speech purist you are OK with [Twitter] responding to free speech with their own free speech". This suggests that free speech is merely about being able to speak and that advocates would be happy for their speech to be stymied in other ways - and, in fact, pleased when all their speech has mandatory notices about its invalidity. Clearly this is not what free-speech advocates believe, so it certainly is straw-manning or as another put "some gymnastics". Apart from that, the rest of what you said is relatively coherent and you did at least try to unpack the platform as-is. It is true that the President of the United States is also an authority. However, are they an authority of Twitter? Well, they can't ban people or add editorial notes below the tweets of their opponents so perhaps not. You also mention that "Trump is given special privileges on Twitter, and is exempt from virtually all the normal TOS", so shouldn't he be held to the same standard as everyone else? Well, yes. Why not? As for whether new ways of adding editorial comment below people's tweets are "special abilities" I think so (because normal users can't do this). However, I agree that Twitter was never "a free speech platform" and that by design it always amplified particular voices via crowd-sourcing. But, there is a difference between crowd-sourced amplification and centralised editorial oversight/amplification. While Twitter has "never been even remotely about [free speech]" the new features are clearly changing what it is from a crowd-sourced amplification platform to a platform with significant editorial oversight. Is it better for there to be a centralised bias for or against different messages or identities or is it better for the bias to be crowd-sourced? Is the editorial oversight US-centric only? Who gets this power (e.g. governments, institutions, HR, etc)? When should there be limits to free speech? When some speech needs to be inhibited should this be done in the open or behind closed doors? Should infractions be explained? Does anybody get to break the rules? I and many others would like if these questions could be answered by the big social networks. It's annoying when people simplify all of this into some primitive desire for everybody to be able to say whatever and have their voice amplified by a platform, since that is not what I am saying.

rbecker 6y ago

Do you think it's possible to hold an opinion other than "this should be illegal" and "this is OK"? Do you think even free speech purists can see the danger in allowing too much influence concentrated in too few hands?

kanox 6y ago

> They are responding to free speech with their own free speech. Yes, this is unironically a good thing. It means that Twitter is acting as a publisher rather than a neutral channel but nobody is willing to pretend that corporations are neutral anyway.