5 ms·

If I remember correctly, Valve started doing this some time ago as an "insurance policy", when Microsoft spoke about locking down Windows (before they introduce

by Jnr 6y ago

If I remember correctly, Valve started doing this some time ago as an "insurance policy", when Microsoft spoke about locking down Windows (before they introduced Windows Store). It is amazing to see how far Linux gaming has come since then. 10 years ago almost none of the big games worked, 5 years ago lots of games worked after fiddling with wine config, and now most of the games I have tried work out of the box after enabling Proton. Imagine what will come in the next 5 to 10 years.

ubidubbiiui 6y ago
Call me optimistic, but I imagine a larger amount of "most" work out of the box by then.
- ekianjo 6y ago
  A lot of games now don't work because of anti-cheat technologies. But Valve is working on this with Codeweavers with their refactoring of NTDLL.
  - eptcyka 6y ago
    The most egregious anti-cheat stuff is actually implemented in a windows kernel driver - I'm not optimistic about this being resolved without first party support for Linux.
    - arebhaibhai 6y ago
      Collabora guys are working on just that, FYI.
    - fctorial 6y ago
      > without first party support for Linux. Or for wine
      - eptcyka 6y ago
        It would be quite the undertaking for wine to also emulate not just the Windows userspace but also the whole Windows kernel to allow for the rootkit anti-cheat driver to run.
        djxfade 6y ago
        Maybe some of the groundwork laid out by ReactOS could be re-used here?
    - baq 6y ago
      i'm not touching games which do that
      - ianhawes 6y ago
        Welcome to any competitive multiplayer game in 2020. My favorite example is PUBG and their insecure netcode (for the first 2 years it was entirely unencrypted). At one point the cheating was so predominant that they banned anyone running VirtualBox and the game at the same time. I was swept up in that because I had a background dev VM running that I forgot about.
        rasz 6y ago
        Kernel anti cheat rootkits meanwhile server doesnt even perform the most basic sanity checks, like is client entity running at the speed of light? is client entity teleporting all over the map? is client entity allowed to fly? or asking really "hard" questions, like should server really send detailed position and model data (animation frame, items equipped etc) of players not in a Potentially visible set to client entity?
        jay_kyburz 6y ago
        That last part is what really annoys me. Do visibility checks on the server not the client.
        account42 6y ago
        But then you need to pay for hardware to run those checks! (Unless of course you let players run their own servers, but then you loose control and might have your old game that refuses to die compete with your newer ones.)
        soulofmischief 6y ago
        As a side note, it always tickles me pink when I'm noticing a game is stuttering a little and then I realize I have 4-5 VMs running in the background. Have to love how far technology is come. 8 years ago I was struggling to run games with a browser open and now i have 5 browsers running at once in the background each in their own VM while playing AAA games at 60fps.
  - gentleman11 6y ago
    Anticheat is just spyware that gamers have grudgingly let run on their systems. I’d rather not play those games when I have the choice. I am 100% not aware of which games use it except for 7 days to die that mentions it in the launcher
jorvi 6y ago
All that is needed now is working with the most-used anti-cheat companies. It sucks when a game works perfectly but you get booted (and possibly banned) for running Linux.
bicolao 6y ago
"Some time ago" was eight years ago (/r/linux_gaming reminded me of this). Amazing they kept going through all this time and do not seem to slow down.
- Macha 6y ago
  I remember when the xcom reboot launched and it was a notable fact that there was a clone of the original xcom with 3d graphics. because that was the Linux gaming scene, openttd, wesnothn and emulation. It's still amazing to me now that the only games I don't play on Linux are MMOs and competitive multiplayer because I'm worried about being banned by an overzealous anticheat. And by all accounts , the games in those categories I like do work on proton
WhyNotHugo 6y ago
Yeah, Steam continuously investing on Linux is what keeps MS in check. Microsoft knows they can't lock down the OS while gaming on Linux [at least] works. It's truly an insurance policy, and they have to pay it each month -- if they let Linux gaming lag behind long enough, they lose their ground on MS.
- Jnr 6y ago
  Microsoft and other game makers will try pushing more exclusives to reduce Valve's "market share". Microsoft recently bought ZeniMax, which makes lots of popular titles that I played on Steam. Unreal is working on their own game store. PS and Xbox has had exclusives for years. If it keeps going this direction, Valve will have to pull a rabbit out of their hat. Either by making some great games again or surprising us with something completely new. Competition is great for consumers, but I am somewhat rooting for the guys that improve free, open source software in the process.
  - WhyNotHugo 6y ago
    > Unreal is working on their own game store. This is so sad. Just fragmenting the market more merely increases the influence of MS. > PS and Xbox has had exclusives for years. These don't really compete with PCs. People stick to one, another, or both. Seldom do gamers suddenly switch from PC to console and completely drop their PC.
    - pzone 6y ago
      The Epic store is the first significant competitor to Steam. They take a lower cut of game sales than Steam does. I wouldn’t lose sleep over market fragmentation.
      - account42 6y ago
        Consumers gain nothing from "competition" if they are forced to use both providers due to exclusives. If Epic would actually compete on features then that would be a good thing, but right now they are just dumping money into developers to gain marketshare while not actually improving anything for end users.
MaximumMadness 6y ago
Does anyone have a good write-up on the history behind Linux gaming? Would love to learn more
- account42 6y ago
  I don't have a writeup but the main highlights have been 1. Loki Entertainment [0] (1988-2001), a third-party porting company that licensed games and released them for Linux 2. Linux Game Publishing [1] (2001-2009), basically continued what Loki was doing 3. id Software used to release their games for Linux and open source the engines [2] 4. Others (mostly Indies) also had Linux ports, but it was still rare: Frictional (Penumbra series, Amnesia), 2D Boy (World of Goo), ... and Wolfire Games who created: 5. Humble Indie Bundle [3] (2010-) incentivized many popular Indie games to be ported to Linux - initially all Bundles where 100% cross-platform between Windows, Linux and OS X. 6. Steam for Linux [4] (beta 2012, 2013-) - with the lure of Steam Machines many more developers jumped onto Linux ports, including some larger Publishers as well as porting companies: Aspyr, Feral Interactive, Virtual Programming (eON) 7. GOG.com Linux support [5] (2014-) 8. DXVK, Proton (2018-) making it easier to play Windows games There was also Kickstarter where for a while most big ones had Linux support promised in some form. Also Unity adding Linux exports has made it possible for tons of games to be ported (although not without issues). I probably forgot some things, but at least that should be a lot you can read up on. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki_Entertainment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki_Entertainment [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Game_Publishing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Game_Publishing [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Software#Linux_gaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Software#Linux_gaming [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_Bundle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_Bundle [4] https://store.steampowered.com/news/9943/ https://store.steampowered.com/news/9943/ [5] https://www.gog.com/news/gogcom_now_supports_linux https://www.gog.com/news/gogcom_now_supports_linux

by Jnr 6y ago

ubidubbiiui 6y ago

Call me optimistic, but I imagine a larger amount of "most" work out of the box by then.

ekianjo 6y ago
A lot of games now don't work because of anti-cheat technologies. But Valve is working on this with Codeweavers with their refactoring of NTDLL.
- eptcyka 6y ago
  The most egregious anti-cheat stuff is actually implemented in a windows kernel driver - I'm not optimistic about this being resolved without first party support for Linux.
  - arebhaibhai 6y ago
    Collabora guys are working on just that, FYI.
  - fctorial 6y ago
    > without first party support for Linux. Or for wine
    - eptcyka 6y ago
      It would be quite the undertaking for wine to also emulate not just the Windows userspace but also the whole Windows kernel to allow for the rootkit anti-cheat driver to run.
      - djxfade 6y ago
        Maybe some of the groundwork laid out by ReactOS could be re-used here?
  - baq 6y ago
    i'm not touching games which do that
    - ianhawes 6y ago
      Welcome to any competitive multiplayer game in 2020. My favorite example is PUBG and their insecure netcode (for the first 2 years it was entirely unencrypted). At one point the cheating was so predominant that they banned anyone running VirtualBox and the game at the same time. I was swept up in that because I had a background dev VM running that I forgot about.
      - rasz 6y ago
        Kernel anti cheat rootkits meanwhile server doesnt even perform the most basic sanity checks, like is client entity running at the speed of light? is client entity teleporting all over the map? is client entity allowed to fly? or asking really "hard" questions, like should server really send detailed position and model data (animation frame, items equipped etc) of players not in a Potentially visible set to client entity?
        jay_kyburz 6y ago
        That last part is what really annoys me. Do visibility checks on the server not the client.
        account42 6y ago
        But then you need to pay for hardware to run those checks! (Unless of course you let players run their own servers, but then you loose control and might have your old game that refuses to die compete with your newer ones.)
      - soulofmischief 6y ago
        As a side note, it always tickles me pink when I'm noticing a game is stuttering a little and then I realize I have 4-5 VMs running in the background. Have to love how far technology is come. 8 years ago I was struggling to run games with a browser open and now i have 5 browsers running at once in the background each in their own VM while playing AAA games at 60fps.
- gentleman11 6y ago
  Anticheat is just spyware that gamers have grudgingly let run on their systems. I’d rather not play those games when I have the choice. I am 100% not aware of which games use it except for 7 days to die that mentions it in the launcher

jorvi 6y ago

All that is needed now is working with the most-used anti-cheat companies. It sucks when a game works perfectly but you get booted (and possibly banned) for running Linux.

bicolao 6y ago

"Some time ago" was eight years ago (/r/linux_gaming reminded me of this). Amazing they kept going through all this time and do not seem to slow down.

Macha 6y ago
I remember when the xcom reboot launched and it was a notable fact that there was a clone of the original xcom with 3d graphics. because that was the Linux gaming scene, openttd, wesnothn and emulation. It's still amazing to me now that the only games I don't play on Linux are MMOs and competitive multiplayer because I'm worried about being banned by an overzealous anticheat. And by all accounts , the games in those categories I like do work on proton

WhyNotHugo 6y ago

Yeah, Steam continuously investing on Linux is what keeps MS in check. Microsoft knows they can't lock down the OS while gaming on Linux [at least] works. It's truly an insurance policy, and they have to pay it each month -- if they let Linux gaming lag behind long enough, they lose their ground on MS.

Jnr 6y ago
Microsoft and other game makers will try pushing more exclusives to reduce Valve's "market share". Microsoft recently bought ZeniMax, which makes lots of popular titles that I played on Steam. Unreal is working on their own game store. PS and Xbox has had exclusives for years. If it keeps going this direction, Valve will have to pull a rabbit out of their hat. Either by making some great games again or surprising us with something completely new. Competition is great for consumers, but I am somewhat rooting for the guys that improve free, open source software in the process.
- WhyNotHugo 6y ago
  > Unreal is working on their own game store. This is so sad. Just fragmenting the market more merely increases the influence of MS. > PS and Xbox has had exclusives for years. These don't really compete with PCs. People stick to one, another, or both. Seldom do gamers suddenly switch from PC to console and completely drop their PC.
  - pzone 6y ago
    The Epic store is the first significant competitor to Steam. They take a lower cut of game sales than Steam does. I wouldn’t lose sleep over market fragmentation.
    - account42 6y ago
      Consumers gain nothing from "competition" if they are forced to use both providers due to exclusives. If Epic would actually compete on features then that would be a good thing, but right now they are just dumping money into developers to gain marketshare while not actually improving anything for end users.

MaximumMadness 6y ago

Does anyone have a good write-up on the history behind Linux gaming? Would love to learn more

account42 6y ago
I don't have a writeup but the main highlights have been 1. Loki Entertainment [0] (1988-2001), a third-party porting company that licensed games and released them for Linux 2. Linux Game Publishing [1] (2001-2009), basically continued what Loki was doing 3. id Software used to release their games for Linux and open source the engines [2] 4. Others (mostly Indies) also had Linux ports, but it was still rare: Frictional (Penumbra series, Amnesia), 2D Boy (World of Goo), ... and Wolfire Games who created: 5. Humble Indie Bundle [3] (2010-) incentivized many popular Indie games to be ported to Linux - initially all Bundles where 100% cross-platform between Windows, Linux and OS X. 6. Steam for Linux [4] (beta 2012, 2013-) - with the lure of Steam Machines many more developers jumped onto Linux ports, including some larger Publishers as well as porting companies: Aspyr, Feral Interactive, Virtual Programming (eON) 7. GOG.com Linux support [5] (2014-) 8. DXVK, Proton (2018-) making it easier to play Windows games There was also Kickstarter where for a while most big ones had Linux support promised in some form. Also Unity adding Linux exports has made it possible for tons of games to be ported (although not without issues). I probably forgot some things, but at least that should be a lot you can read up on. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki_Entertainment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loki_Entertainment [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Game_Publishing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_Game_Publishing [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Software#Linux_gaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id_Software#Linux_gaming [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_Bundle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humble_Bundle [4] https://store.steampowered.com/news/9943/ https://store.steampowered.com/news/9943/ [5] https://www.gog.com/news/gogcom_now_supports_linux https://www.gog.com/news/gogcom_now_supports_linux