8 ms·

Kosher slaughter is extra cruel/inhumane. The animal is not stunned during slaughter, while its neck is cut and it is bled out. No good reason what so ever for

Kosher slaughter is extra cruel/inhumane. The animal is not stunned during slaughter, while its neck is cut and it is bled out. No good reason what so ever for this practice to be allowed to continue in 2020, other than outdated religious dogma. [Edit] Since I'm already getting downvoted for this comment. Go look up some videos if you don't believe.

tasogare 6y ago
Sad you are being downvoted for saying a truism, since if it were a Christian dogma the same people would upvote you instead. I’ll add that nowadays the problem of kosher and hallal meat price is "solved" this way: most animals are killed using one of those rites, and the meat surplus is sold as non-kosher and non-hallal to unsuspecting users. This is something some people advocate to change (speaking of France here) since hallal meat is funding mosquees and other for the safety/animal wellbeing point of view, but entrenched religious lobbying made it fail so far.
krzyk 6y ago
And I was very surprised that in my country (non-Islamic, non-Jewish) most of the meat produced is using kosher/halal way because we export most of it. It is quite sad, because I don't think making animals suffer is a good way to go :(
- jmnicolas 6y ago
  The main reason is it's cheaper to kill animals this way. Capitalism has no soul.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    It's not cheaper. Stunning is cheaper, and can be pretty much completely automated.
- xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
  I am guessing here, but in South America? Temple Grandin wrote a wonderful (and terrifying) essay about the Kosher/Halal industry and it was pretty eye-opening.
  - kaszanka 6y ago
    Probably Poland judging by the username. Though "most" doesn't seem right, IIRC it's more like 40% of exports. That's still 40 pp. too much though.
    - ameen 6y ago
      Halal meat in Europe is stunned, only Kosher meat can’t be stunned. The only difference between halal and most modern methods is the blessing.
- ameen 6y ago
  I’m not sure about Kosher, but for meat to be considered Halal - it has to be treated well and not suffer. If the animal suffers it is rendered non-halal. Halal meat is more humane than widely used slaughter methods. There is misconception among non-Muslims that halal doesn’t support modern slaughter methods, but it actually adapts to work with it. ~60% of all halal meat in the UK is stunned, whilst 0% of kosher meat is. Please do not conflate the two to push an agenda. The only source used throughout this thread is Grandin and not actually looking at the industry itself. Islam also favors vegetarianism due to the sunnah of the prophet eating only what is required and not have elaborate meals of extravagance and food wastage but we aren’t ready for that conversation in a capitalist society (Less consumption = lower profits) Source: https://www.animalsinislam.com/halal-living/fatwas/ https://www.animalsinislam.com/halal-living/fatwas/
  - alisonkisk 6y ago
    Your source is a PETA website that downplays its identity (it's in the footer). That not a credible source on islamic practice in the real world.
    - ameen 6y ago
      Here’s an alternate source: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/aug/26/meat-islam-vegetarianism-ramadan https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/aug/26... I’m an Indian Muslim (born and raised in KSA), and while the source is from a PETA website it’s what we’ve practiced. You can independently look up the Hadith (narrations) and see if they are valid. Although modern Muslims have become a lot more meat dependent due to modern agriculture practices (as have most societies regardless of faith), I would argue that for Muslims vegetarianism or moderation in meat consumption isn’t a repugnant idea as it is for most folks in the west.
nsxwolf 6y ago
I’ve watched kosher and halal slaughter and honestly don’t see what the big deal is. Have you ever seen an animal hunted with a bow or a rifle? Is it really so bad that it is worth persecuting the adherents of two major world religions over?
- rndgermandude 6y ago
  Persecuting? That's a big stretch.
  - nsxwolf 6y ago
    Forcing people to either violate their beliefs or become vegetarians over some fussy, ultramodern fixation on animal rights? Seems close to persecution to me.
    - bosswipe 6y ago
      What about the beliefs of the people that see animals as fellow beings that deserve compassion and respect?
      - sokoloff 6y ago
        Those people should certainly be free to act in accordance with their beliefs, too.
    - Griffinsauce 6y ago
      Using the word "fussy" while we are talking about literally getting killed is an interesting choice of words, considering the injustice both sides get. The difference here is between beliefs on one side and physical pain and abuse on the other. You only let the beliefs take precedence when you consider humans to be above animals. This is a vicious cycle of religious dogma.
    - rndgermandude 6y ago
      I see no problem in challenging cultural/religious norms and traditions if the argument is made in good faith, and I have no reason to believe the poster was acting from a position of bad faith. We can then decide if the argument is sound and we agree with it, or disagree with it. There are plenty of such customs and norms I disagree with myself, for example the catholic ban on divorce (at least they do not excommunicate divorcees anymore; banned in the Philippines for anybody except Muslims), their ban on contraceptives in particular condoms (see: HIV), their ban of abortions ([1]) or their stance on gay rights. I think I have good reasons to disagree and that every example I listed has real world implications negatively affecting people and not just because they chose to follow Catholic norms. Do I feel I am persecuting the Catholic Church? No. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar
hlieberman 6y ago
This isn't true; Temple Grandin, one of the preeminent scholars of animal welfare during slaughtering, has said that Kosher slaughter can be as painless as stunned slaughtering.
- xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
  Erm, that's a very generous framing. Please read her article on the subject and reevaluate your position: https://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.meat.uruguay.html https://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.meat.uruguay.html While it can be a much less painful process than it usually is, in practice it is not.
  - phonon 6y ago
    Err, since she criticizes a (non-essential ritual) practice in certain kosher south American slaughterhouses, that means "in practice it is not"? What wide expertise do you have in shechita? To explain further; in shechita, the animal needs to be restrained when it is cut. Some kosher slaughterhouses did this with a "shackle and hoist" method. This is not a classical shechita technique, but one added for "production line" purposes. It scares the animal, and should be discouraged. In fact, it is banned in Israel. https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/israel-instructs-kosher-slaughterhouses-to-stop-shackle-hoist-practice-492021#:~:text=The%20shackle%2Dand%2Dhoist%20method,lifting%20the%20animal%20for%20slaughter https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/israel-instructs-kosher-sl.... Here is the excerpt you misinterpreted. "For over twenty years I have been actively involved in improving animal welfare during kosher slaughter. When animal welfare is being evaluated, one must carefully separate the variable of how the animal is restrained from the variable of throat cutting without stunning. These are two separate issues. My work has focused on replacing the cruel shackling and hoisting procedure with a more comfortable method of holding the animals prior to shehita. When a stressful method of restraint is used, it is impossible to evaluate the animal's reaction to the shehita cut because the animal is kicking and bellowing from the stress of the restraint methods. After I had designed and operated a better restraining device to hold the cattle in a comfortable upright position, I was amazed to observe that the animal did not appear to feel the cut. My work has focused on improving the methods used to hold the animals. I have never attacked shehita. In fact many of my articles support shehita. Over the years I have worked with many wonderful shochets and rabbis. I totally respect these very sincere people. Rabbi Abe Rine had been a great supporter of my work and when he died it was a great loss to animal welfare and religious slaughter. I have worked with many shochets who were grateful to have the new systems. Eliminating shackling and hoisting of conscious live cattle improves both animal welfare and personal safety for the rabbis and shochets."
jraby3 6y ago
I disagree. It seems significantly more humane than the mass slaughterhouses in the midwestern US. It’s so bad there they actually made it illegal to video.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
vxNsr 6y ago
This is false and has been shown to be false. you refuse to offer up any evidence to back your accusation aside from your own bigotry.
- xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
  Please show where it has been shown to be false. This is extremely untrue.
croh 6y ago
The views of modern world amaze me. In last century, we fought against gender descrimination, then race descrimation (and still continued). Long way to go when time will come to fight against national identity and then planetary. I am still waiting for time when humanity starts treating animals equally. It doesn't make sense how your race/gender/creed descrimation is different than animal. Only because they can't talk your language, it doesn't mean they don't have feelings or dosnt suffer. When that generation will come, they will look down us the way we look at slavery in previous centuries.
- Fnoord 6y ago
  This is called speciesism [1]. Problem I have with all of it is the black-white thinking. You are either vegetarian, or you are not. You are either vegan, or you are not. Whereas you simply aren't, depending on how far you stretch the definition. If it comes to giving up and alienating people for being imperfect, I believe that is harmful. Hence I applaud reducetarianism. Either way, however far you take it, the direct connection between eating meat and animal suffering is easier and easier for an individual to work around. Because society is getting more and more vegetarian and vegan friendly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism
  - alisonkisk 6y ago
    Imagine if people took a reducetarian attitude toward murder. It doesn't make a lot of sense, which is why people choose one big moral lie over self-awarely violating their own morality every day.
    - Fnoord 6y ago
      > Imagine if people took a reducetarian attitude toward murder. Why not? Imagine we are murdering thousands of people every day. We're able to reduce this by say 50%. How is that not an achievement? Compare it to slavery. What if we are able to have slaves live with more freedom than the status quo? What if we are able to liberate 50% of all slaves? Isn't that commendable? Again, you step right into the bifurcation (black and white thinking) trap.
kobayashi 6y ago
That is simply inaccurate and Kosher killing has always had humanity in animal killing front and centre, even far before the concept of treating animals humanely became widespread in human societies. The notion that an animal should be electrically shocked so that it is “stunned” before being killed is a matter for debate and is not definitely more or less humane. There is often room for improvements, including reducing pre-slaughter stress, but when done right kosher slaughter is among the most humane forms of killing an animal. For example, with a skilled _shochet_ a cow can collapse within 10 seconds and not react at all to the cut itself. The requirements for even the sharpness of the knife are paramount, such that the animal feel no/a minimum of pain. Contrast this with the overwhelming majority of slaughterhouses, both today and over human history, and I hope you’ll see that kosher animal killing is far different from what you described above.
- harperlee 6y ago
  Let me try to steelman it for you: unless we assume God exists in the particular way a given religion says, religion dogma makes a debate around ethical animal slaughtering too inflexible. It is highly unlikely that either kosher or halal rites maximize ethical treatment beyond any chance of improvement (unless you assume divine guidance, obviously), and neither religion is very open to revisit dogma at the pace that ethical understanding of how animals ought to be treated, outside of a religious framework, evolves. Thus, we can consider religious views here as roadblocks.
  - kobayashi 6y ago
    Any individual view on the religious merits of kosher slaughter isn’t necessary in determining its humaneness. The facts stand on their own. There is of course a separate discussion to be had on the value of ritual slaughter to an individual or group’s religious expression, but I think that needn’t be considered in order to determine that animal killing according to kosher laws is not an inhumane method of killing an animal, and it’s rules of slaughter were among the first and most enduring form of an animal welfare. Also tangential to this entire conversation is the merit/morality of animal consumption whatsoever, and whether it can be morally defended in the modern context, but I think that’s also best left for another day.
5747546747 6y ago
> Kosher slaughter is extra cruel/inhumane So is circumcision (genital mutilation)
aaron695 6y ago
> [Edit] Since I'm already getting downvoted for this comment. Go look up some videos if you don't believe. Your comment is 100% off topic to the article. It's as on topic as bringing up Palestine. It's just divisive.
sam_goody 6y ago
I have been to both generic and kosher slaughterhouses on two continents. I suggest you do the same, it is incredibly instructive. In my anecdotal experience, if I had to be a cow or a chicken, I would MUCH rather be in a kosher slaughterhouse. Better terms before, and what appears to me (the observer) as a much less painful death - in one case I wasn't sure if the cow knew he was slaughtered. Videos are generally posted by people with an axe to ground, and can never be taken in context. The process takes too long to make a good video. Am I subjective? Well, yeah probably. So are you. But I suspect you would agree if you checked it out. (Note - slaughterhouses are dangerous places, and cameras are not welcome. If you do go, don't be an idiot.)
notebook00 6y ago
A video will merely allow me to better visualize what may look to be an extra/cruel or inhumane method of slaughter, but it wont back up your statement that it is truly inhumane. In other words, ritual slaughter may be more gory, but it isn't necessarily more painful for the animal.
AzzieElbab 6y ago
What about halal? Would it make a broader impact protesting halal butchering given that amount of animals slaughtered in that way is thousands times higher?

tasogare 6y ago

Sad you are being downvoted for saying a truism, since if it were a Christian dogma the same people would upvote you instead. I’ll add that nowadays the problem of kosher and hallal meat price is "solved" this way: most animals are killed using one of those rites, and the meat surplus is sold as non-kosher and non-hallal to unsuspecting users. This is something some people advocate to change (speaking of France here) since hallal meat is funding mosquees and other for the safety/animal wellbeing point of view, but entrenched religious lobbying made it fail so far.

krzyk 6y ago

And I was very surprised that in my country (non-Islamic, non-Jewish) most of the meat produced is using kosher/halal way because we export most of it. It is quite sad, because I don't think making animals suffer is a good way to go :(

jmnicolas 6y ago
The main reason is it's cheaper to kill animals this way. Capitalism has no soul.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  It's not cheaper. Stunning is cheaper, and can be pretty much completely automated.
xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
I am guessing here, but in South America? Temple Grandin wrote a wonderful (and terrifying) essay about the Kosher/Halal industry and it was pretty eye-opening.
- kaszanka 6y ago
  Probably Poland judging by the username. Though "most" doesn't seem right, IIRC it's more like 40% of exports. That's still 40 pp. too much though.
  - ameen 6y ago
    Halal meat in Europe is stunned, only Kosher meat can’t be stunned. The only difference between halal and most modern methods is the blessing.
ameen 6y ago
I’m not sure about Kosher, but for meat to be considered Halal - it has to be treated well and not suffer. If the animal suffers it is rendered non-halal. Halal meat is more humane than widely used slaughter methods. There is misconception among non-Muslims that halal doesn’t support modern slaughter methods, but it actually adapts to work with it. ~60% of all halal meat in the UK is stunned, whilst 0% of kosher meat is. Please do not conflate the two to push an agenda. The only source used throughout this thread is Grandin and not actually looking at the industry itself. Islam also favors vegetarianism due to the sunnah of the prophet eating only what is required and not have elaborate meals of extravagance and food wastage but we aren’t ready for that conversation in a capitalist society (Less consumption = lower profits) Source: https://www.animalsinislam.com/halal-living/fatwas/ https://www.animalsinislam.com/halal-living/fatwas/
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  Your source is a PETA website that downplays its identity (it's in the footer). That not a credible source on islamic practice in the real world.
  - ameen 6y ago
    Here’s an alternate source: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/aug/26/meat-islam-vegetarianism-ramadan https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/aug/26... I’m an Indian Muslim (born and raised in KSA), and while the source is from a PETA website it’s what we’ve practiced. You can independently look up the Hadith (narrations) and see if they are valid. Although modern Muslims have become a lot more meat dependent due to modern agriculture practices (as have most societies regardless of faith), I would argue that for Muslims vegetarianism or moderation in meat consumption isn’t a repugnant idea as it is for most folks in the west.

nsxwolf 6y ago

I’ve watched kosher and halal slaughter and honestly don’t see what the big deal is. Have you ever seen an animal hunted with a bow or a rifle? Is it really so bad that it is worth persecuting the adherents of two major world religions over?

rndgermandude 6y ago
Persecuting? That's a big stretch.
- nsxwolf 6y ago
  Forcing people to either violate their beliefs or become vegetarians over some fussy, ultramodern fixation on animal rights? Seems close to persecution to me.
  - bosswipe 6y ago
    What about the beliefs of the people that see animals as fellow beings that deserve compassion and respect?
    - sokoloff 6y ago
      Those people should certainly be free to act in accordance with their beliefs, too.
  - Griffinsauce 6y ago
    Using the word "fussy" while we are talking about literally getting killed is an interesting choice of words, considering the injustice both sides get. The difference here is between beliefs on one side and physical pain and abuse on the other. You only let the beliefs take precedence when you consider humans to be above animals. This is a vicious cycle of religious dogma.
  - rndgermandude 6y ago
    I see no problem in challenging cultural/religious norms and traditions if the argument is made in good faith, and I have no reason to believe the poster was acting from a position of bad faith. We can then decide if the argument is sound and we agree with it, or disagree with it. There are plenty of such customs and norms I disagree with myself, for example the catholic ban on divorce (at least they do not excommunicate divorcees anymore; banned in the Philippines for anybody except Muslims), their ban on contraceptives in particular condoms (see: HIV), their ban of abortions ([1]) or their stance on gay rights. I think I have good reasons to disagree and that every example I listed has real world implications negatively affecting people and not just because they chose to follow Catholic norms. Do I feel I am persecuting the Catholic Church? No. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Savita_Halappanavar

hlieberman 6y ago

This isn't true; Temple Grandin, one of the preeminent scholars of animal welfare during slaughtering, has said that Kosher slaughter can be as painless as stunned slaughtering.

xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
Erm, that's a very generous framing. Please read her article on the subject and reevaluate your position: https://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.meat.uruguay.html https://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.meat.uruguay.html While it can be a much less painful process than it usually is, in practice it is not.
- phonon 6y ago
  Err, since she criticizes a (non-essential ritual) practice in certain kosher south American slaughterhouses, that means "in practice it is not"? What wide expertise do you have in shechita? To explain further; in shechita, the animal needs to be restrained when it is cut. Some kosher slaughterhouses did this with a "shackle and hoist" method. This is not a classical shechita technique, but one added for "production line" purposes. It scares the animal, and should be discouraged. In fact, it is banned in Israel. https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/israel-instructs-kosher-slaughterhouses-to-stop-shackle-hoist-practice-492021#:~:text=The%20shackle%2Dand%2Dhoist%20method,lifting%20the%20animal%20for%20slaughter https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/israel-instructs-kosher-sl.... Here is the excerpt you misinterpreted. "For over twenty years I have been actively involved in improving animal welfare during kosher slaughter. When animal welfare is being evaluated, one must carefully separate the variable of how the animal is restrained from the variable of throat cutting without stunning. These are two separate issues. My work has focused on replacing the cruel shackling and hoisting procedure with a more comfortable method of holding the animals prior to shehita. When a stressful method of restraint is used, it is impossible to evaluate the animal's reaction to the shehita cut because the animal is kicking and bellowing from the stress of the restraint methods. After I had designed and operated a better restraining device to hold the cattle in a comfortable upright position, I was amazed to observe that the animal did not appear to feel the cut. My work has focused on improving the methods used to hold the animals. I have never attacked shehita. In fact many of my articles support shehita. Over the years I have worked with many wonderful shochets and rabbis. I totally respect these very sincere people. Rabbi Abe Rine had been a great supporter of my work and when he died it was a great loss to animal welfare and religious slaughter. I have worked with many shochets who were grateful to have the new systems. Eliminating shackling and hoisting of conscious live cattle improves both animal welfare and personal safety for the rabbis and shochets."

jraby3 6y ago

I disagree. It seems significantly more humane than the mass slaughterhouses in the midwestern US. It’s so bad there they actually made it illegal to video.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

vxNsr 6y ago

This is false and has been shown to be false. you refuse to offer up any evidence to back your accusation aside from your own bigotry.

xyzzy_plugh 6y ago
Please show where it has been shown to be false. This is extremely untrue.

croh 6y ago

The views of modern world amaze me. In last century, we fought against gender descrimination, then race descrimation (and still continued). Long way to go when time will come to fight against national identity and then planetary. I am still waiting for time when humanity starts treating animals equally. It doesn't make sense how your race/gender/creed descrimation is different than animal. Only because they can't talk your language, it doesn't mean they don't have feelings or dosnt suffer. When that generation will come, they will look down us the way we look at slavery in previous centuries.

Fnoord 6y ago
This is called speciesism [1]. Problem I have with all of it is the black-white thinking. You are either vegetarian, or you are not. You are either vegan, or you are not. Whereas you simply aren't, depending on how far you stretch the definition. If it comes to giving up and alienating people for being imperfect, I believe that is harmful. Hence I applaud reducetarianism. Either way, however far you take it, the direct connection between eating meat and animal suffering is easier and easier for an individual to work around. Because society is getting more and more vegetarian and vegan friendly. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism
- alisonkisk 6y ago
  Imagine if people took a reducetarian attitude toward murder. It doesn't make a lot of sense, which is why people choose one big moral lie over self-awarely violating their own morality every day.
  - Fnoord 6y ago
    > Imagine if people took a reducetarian attitude toward murder. Why not? Imagine we are murdering thousands of people every day. We're able to reduce this by say 50%. How is that not an achievement? Compare it to slavery. What if we are able to have slaves live with more freedom than the status quo? What if we are able to liberate 50% of all slaves? Isn't that commendable? Again, you step right into the bifurcation (black and white thinking) trap.

kobayashi 6y ago

That is simply inaccurate and Kosher killing has always had humanity in animal killing front and centre, even far before the concept of treating animals humanely became widespread in human societies. The notion that an animal should be electrically shocked so that it is “stunned” before being killed is a matter for debate and is not definitely more or less humane. There is often room for improvements, including reducing pre-slaughter stress, but when done right kosher slaughter is among the most humane forms of killing an animal. For example, with a skilled _shochet_ a cow can collapse within 10 seconds and not react at all to the cut itself. The requirements for even the sharpness of the knife are paramount, such that the animal feel no/a minimum of pain. Contrast this with the overwhelming majority of slaughterhouses, both today and over human history, and I hope you’ll see that kosher animal killing is far different from what you described above.

harperlee 6y ago
Let me try to steelman it for you: unless we assume God exists in the particular way a given religion says, religion dogma makes a debate around ethical animal slaughtering too inflexible. It is highly unlikely that either kosher or halal rites maximize ethical treatment beyond any chance of improvement (unless you assume divine guidance, obviously), and neither religion is very open to revisit dogma at the pace that ethical understanding of how animals ought to be treated, outside of a religious framework, evolves. Thus, we can consider religious views here as roadblocks.
- kobayashi 6y ago
  Any individual view on the religious merits of kosher slaughter isn’t necessary in determining its humaneness. The facts stand on their own. There is of course a separate discussion to be had on the value of ritual slaughter to an individual or group’s religious expression, but I think that needn’t be considered in order to determine that animal killing according to kosher laws is not an inhumane method of killing an animal, and it’s rules of slaughter were among the first and most enduring form of an animal welfare. Also tangential to this entire conversation is the merit/morality of animal consumption whatsoever, and whether it can be morally defended in the modern context, but I think that’s also best left for another day.

5747546747 6y ago

> Kosher slaughter is extra cruel/inhumane So is circumcision (genital mutilation)

aaron695 6y ago

> [Edit] Since I'm already getting downvoted for this comment. Go look up some videos if you don't believe. Your comment is 100% off topic to the article. It's as on topic as bringing up Palestine. It's just divisive.

sam_goody 6y ago

I have been to both generic and kosher slaughterhouses on two continents. I suggest you do the same, it is incredibly instructive. In my anecdotal experience, if I had to be a cow or a chicken, I would MUCH rather be in a kosher slaughterhouse. Better terms before, and what appears to me (the observer) as a much less painful death - in one case I wasn't sure if the cow knew he was slaughtered. Videos are generally posted by people with an axe to ground, and can never be taken in context. The process takes too long to make a good video. Am I subjective? Well, yeah probably. So are you. But I suspect you would agree if you checked it out. (Note - slaughterhouses are dangerous places, and cameras are not welcome. If you do go, don't be an idiot.)

notebook00 6y ago

A video will merely allow me to better visualize what may look to be an extra/cruel or inhumane method of slaughter, but it wont back up your statement that it is truly inhumane. In other words, ritual slaughter may be more gory, but it isn't necessarily more painful for the animal.

AzzieElbab 6y ago

What about halal? Would it make a broader impact protesting halal butchering given that amount of animals slaughtered in that way is thousands times higher?