8 ms·

And discriminated against for not being Chinese regardless.

ponker 6y ago
Well, I expect that China is building world domination for the benefit of the Chinese people, not the benefit of everyone who comes under their dominion, similar to the white men who built American world domination.
- _wt8k 6y ago
  This is a false moral equivalence. The US was founded on the idea that "all men are created equal." The US has made terrible mistakes, such as not immediately banning slavery and not extending voting rights to women, and the US still has room to improve today. However, the founding ideas of the US provide a mandate and inspire people to work towards a more equal society. I would greatly prefer the US over China as the world hegemon. I am Chinese-American, so if China were to displace the US as world hegemon and put Han people at the top of society, that would personally benefit me. However, I do not want that, as I support racial equality.
  - hungryhobo 6y ago
    and china is called "the people's republic", what US or China call themselves is irrelevant. I am Chinese as well, I do not think Chinese has ambition for world domination, but I believe it deserves the right to develop and enjoy a living standard similar to the west.
    - _wt8k 6y ago
      I agree with you that people in China deserve a standard of living similar to the West. I also think that people in China deserve to have more freedoms and a representative government, as opposed to a closed one-party bureaucracy. Historically, the West opened up to China as China economically liberalized, in the hopes that China would also grant more freedoms to its people. Unfortunately, this did not happen. Now, China is also trying to expand its territory. I fear that Chinese hegemonic status will have negative consequences for other Asian peoples. I hope that one day, people in China may enjoy their right to a liberal democracy.
      - hungryhobo 6y ago
        Well how do you define a representative government? is election the only method of creating a representative government? Any Chinese can take up posts with in the government. Instead of worrying about what the color of the ties to wear because it polls better for a target group, chinese officials are given a KPI like deliverable to complete and that's how you rise through the ranks. Sorta like any modern private company. I'm aware there are pros and cons to both models but so far i think the chinese government is doing the right things to develop economically.
        ponker 6y ago
        I'm not a political theorist but the Chinese government is out-competing the US government by leaps and bounds. The current President is busy whining that he won while the Chinese are building probably 100 railroads at the same time.
        _wt8k 6y ago
        I didn't realize this when I wrote my earlier comment, but something that I found disturbing was that you seemed okay with the prospect of your own children being discriminated against, since you merely "expect that China is building world domination for the benefit of the Chinese people." I certainly don't want my future children to be discriminated against. Why do you think that a future where your progeny are second-class citizens is a morally acceptable one? Even if we suppose that America and China are morally equivalent (which I strongly disagree with), just out of the self-interest of yourself and your family, why would you prefer China over America?
        ponker 6y ago
        I do not believe that it's "morally acceptable." I believe that it is where the world is going. America is fracturing itself while China just keeps executing. Our bridges and electrical grid and transit systems rot into oblivion while people riot in the streets against their political opponents. While China is building up its hard power, soft power, and economic force projection with the Belt and Road initiative. Was a incalculably powerful US that toppled democratically elected regimes in Latin America/Iran/etc. a morally acceptable one? No but that's what it is and all you other fucks had to learn English to get some of our money. Now the shoe is on the other foot and we are the fucks who will need to learn Chinese. Serves us right but I still ain't happy about it.
    - frequentnapper 6y ago
      So does every country, but not at whatever cost, i.e. it does NOT deserve the "right" to systematically commit racism or genocides against people who are not Han simply because they are in the way.
      - hungryhobo 6y ago
        No disagreements there
  - komali2 6y ago
    When they wrote "all men are created equal," they had black slaves. Why do you take their words at face value? It's possible to have this conversation without framing it as some sort of binary choice between xi jinping's happy social currency reeducation camp club, and white america's causally racist military industrial imperialism. Imo you can't love your country without always seeking to improve it.
    - _wt8k 6y ago
      My comment doesn't contradict anything that you're saying. I pointed out that America has made many grave mistakes, such as slavery, and that we can still improve America today. The words of the Declaration of Independence are an inspiration and mandate to work towards the goal of equality. Our founding fathers were certainly hypocrites and flawed men, but that doesn't invalidate the truth of their words.
  - disown 6y ago
    > The US was founded on the idea that "all men are created equal." No it wasn't. The US was founded on the idea that a king across the ocean can't tell us we can't expand beyond the appalachian mountains. https://www.britannica.com/event/Proclamation-of-1763 https://www.britannica.com/event/Proclamation-of-1763 The revolutionary war started because we wanted to take more land from the natives and the king forbade that because he wanted good trade relations with the native peoples. That's it. Everything else is just propaganda. > I am Chinese-American, so if China were to displace the US as world hegemon and put Han people at the top of society, that would personally benefit me. China will never be world hegemon due to geographical, racial, historical, etc issues. China vs the US, Europe, Russia, Australia, Canada, etc isn't even a fair contest. Not to mention western aligned nations like india, japan, etc wouldn't allow china to be a hegemon. Also, how would it benefit you if the chinese government view you as a traitor? > However, I do not want that, as I support racial equality. If you equate hegemony with racial supremacy, why would you support US hegemony? How about "no hegemony"? Don't you think the world would be better if the US didn't have to maintain a world empire? The world wouldn't have to worry about invasions and we can finally start investing in american infrastructure. When I see the amount of infrastructure china has built the last few decades ( heck just the last 10 years alone ), I have to say I'm a bit envious. Instead of sinking trillions in foreign wars, imagine all those trillions were invested in new railways, new airports, nuclear energy, green energy, reviving inner cities, etc.

Well, I expect that China is building world domination for the benefit of the Chinese people, not the benefit of everyone who comes under their dominion, similar to the white men who built American world domination.

_wt8k 6y ago
This is a false moral equivalence. The US was founded on the idea that "all men are created equal." The US has made terrible mistakes, such as not immediately banning slavery and not extending voting rights to women, and the US still has room to improve today. However, the founding ideas of the US provide a mandate and inspire people to work towards a more equal society. I would greatly prefer the US over China as the world hegemon. I am Chinese-American, so if China were to displace the US as world hegemon and put Han people at the top of society, that would personally benefit me. However, I do not want that, as I support racial equality.
- hungryhobo 6y ago
  and china is called "the people's republic", what US or China call themselves is irrelevant. I am Chinese as well, I do not think Chinese has ambition for world domination, but I believe it deserves the right to develop and enjoy a living standard similar to the west.
  - _wt8k 6y ago
    I agree with you that people in China deserve a standard of living similar to the West. I also think that people in China deserve to have more freedoms and a representative government, as opposed to a closed one-party bureaucracy. Historically, the West opened up to China as China economically liberalized, in the hopes that China would also grant more freedoms to its people. Unfortunately, this did not happen. Now, China is also trying to expand its territory. I fear that Chinese hegemonic status will have negative consequences for other Asian peoples. I hope that one day, people in China may enjoy their right to a liberal democracy.
    - hungryhobo 6y ago
      Well how do you define a representative government? is election the only method of creating a representative government? Any Chinese can take up posts with in the government. Instead of worrying about what the color of the ties to wear because it polls better for a target group, chinese officials are given a KPI like deliverable to complete and that's how you rise through the ranks. Sorta like any modern private company. I'm aware there are pros and cons to both models but so far i think the chinese government is doing the right things to develop economically.
      - ponker 6y ago
        I'm not a political theorist but the Chinese government is out-competing the US government by leaps and bounds. The current President is busy whining that he won while the Chinese are building probably 100 railroads at the same time.
        _wt8k 6y ago
        I didn't realize this when I wrote my earlier comment, but something that I found disturbing was that you seemed okay with the prospect of your own children being discriminated against, since you merely "expect that China is building world domination for the benefit of the Chinese people." I certainly don't want my future children to be discriminated against. Why do you think that a future where your progeny are second-class citizens is a morally acceptable one? Even if we suppose that America and China are morally equivalent (which I strongly disagree with), just out of the self-interest of yourself and your family, why would you prefer China over America?
        ponker 6y ago
        I do not believe that it's "morally acceptable." I believe that it is where the world is going. America is fracturing itself while China just keeps executing. Our bridges and electrical grid and transit systems rot into oblivion while people riot in the streets against their political opponents. While China is building up its hard power, soft power, and economic force projection with the Belt and Road initiative. Was a incalculably powerful US that toppled democratically elected regimes in Latin America/Iran/etc. a morally acceptable one? No but that's what it is and all you other fucks had to learn English to get some of our money. Now the shoe is on the other foot and we are the fucks who will need to learn Chinese. Serves us right but I still ain't happy about it.
  - frequentnapper 6y ago
    So does every country, but not at whatever cost, i.e. it does NOT deserve the "right" to systematically commit racism or genocides against people who are not Han simply because they are in the way.
    - hungryhobo 6y ago
      No disagreements there
- komali2 6y ago
  When they wrote "all men are created equal," they had black slaves. Why do you take their words at face value? It's possible to have this conversation without framing it as some sort of binary choice between xi jinping's happy social currency reeducation camp club, and white america's causally racist military industrial imperialism. Imo you can't love your country without always seeking to improve it.
  - _wt8k 6y ago
    My comment doesn't contradict anything that you're saying. I pointed out that America has made many grave mistakes, such as slavery, and that we can still improve America today. The words of the Declaration of Independence are an inspiration and mandate to work towards the goal of equality. Our founding fathers were certainly hypocrites and flawed men, but that doesn't invalidate the truth of their words.
- disown 6y ago
  > The US was founded on the idea that "all men are created equal." No it wasn't. The US was founded on the idea that a king across the ocean can't tell us we can't expand beyond the appalachian mountains. https://www.britannica.com/event/Proclamation-of-1763 https://www.britannica.com/event/Proclamation-of-1763 The revolutionary war started because we wanted to take more land from the natives and the king forbade that because he wanted good trade relations with the native peoples. That's it. Everything else is just propaganda. > I am Chinese-American, so if China were to displace the US as world hegemon and put Han people at the top of society, that would personally benefit me. China will never be world hegemon due to geographical, racial, historical, etc issues. China vs the US, Europe, Russia, Australia, Canada, etc isn't even a fair contest. Not to mention western aligned nations like india, japan, etc wouldn't allow china to be a hegemon. Also, how would it benefit you if the chinese government view you as a traitor? > However, I do not want that, as I support racial equality. If you equate hegemony with racial supremacy, why would you support US hegemony? How about "no hegemony"? Don't you think the world would be better if the US didn't have to maintain a world empire? The world wouldn't have to worry about invasions and we can finally start investing in american infrastructure. When I see the amount of infrastructure china has built the last few decades ( heck just the last 10 years alone ), I have to say I'm a bit envious. Instead of sinking trillions in foreign wars, imagine all those trillions were invested in new railways, new airports, nuclear energy, green energy, reviving inner cities, etc.