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> you are lying to yourself. Gee well that's a rather bold statement. I find this attitude of "if you're not vegan you're a liar" so insufferable. I can think

> you are lying to yourself. Gee well that's a rather bold statement. I find this attitude of "if you're not vegan you're a liar" so insufferable. I can think of at least a few explanations for the parent comment. "If you think your cheese is suffering free..." 1. You may be underinformed 2. You've purchased free range dairy products 3. You know something I don't

deleted 6y ago
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MiguelHudnandez 6y ago
For your third suggestion, I'll take a shot: For animals to lactate, they must become pregnant. Dairy cows are repeatedly impregnated, they give birth, and they are separated from their calves. Female calves become dairy cows themselves, male calves are either made into veal or killed promptly. A small fraction may become studs for more dairy calves. The entire ordeal is very much not natural and not pleasant. And we do it at a scale that is awe-inducing. If you are a compassionate type that sees cows in a similar light to dogs, I'd bet you can understand why someone would feel very strongly that it's not an option. If you would like to learn more there are a few documentaries that explore the big 3 benefits of veganism--Health, ecology, and animal welfare. I won't link them here as they are easy to find for any that are interested.
- dzhiurgis 6y ago
  Seems like giving lactation hormones is way more ethical than clubbing baby cows
  - cies 6y ago
    Afaik not possible.
    - belorn 6y ago
      Interesting question. A search later and a quick read of this study (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15377608/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15377608/) and the answer seems to be one about economics and FDA approval.
moab 6y ago
Well, if you take the time to learn about dairy farming (even in free range dairy farms), you would quickly find out that cows have a natural lifespan of ~20 years, but cows used in dairy farms have an average lifespan of ~6 years. From the perspective of giving entities that we believe are probably conscious and probably feel suffering and pain a fair chance at life, minimizing the amount of dairy and cheese we consume would seem like a good idea. I'm looking forward to a world where lab-grown cheese substitutes are as good as (or better) than the real thing.
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  > a fair chance at life If you eliminate meat and dairy, those animals won’t have any life at all. The only reason they are there is because humans eat them.
  - sc4les 6y ago
    Haha what. So it's okay to have dog fights since the dogs wouldn't be born otherwise? That's such a weird argument
    - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
      I quoted the part I was responding to. I wasn’t making any argument about the larger question as to whether keeping animals is moral.
  - moab 6y ago
    I am sure we would still have some number of dairy cows like the lovely highland cows that this person takes care of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmBYs53quP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmBYs53quP8 Their population would be greatly reduced, but is having a billion consciousnesses in a mediocre state and potentially suffering somehow better than having a few orders of magnitude fewer consciousnesses that are properly cared for and living more "natural" lives? It is hard to say without getting into the details, but from a high-level utilitarian perspective, one feels that the latter is somehow more preferable, although doing any kind of arithmetic with souls is a risky business.
deleted 6y ago
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adtac 6y ago
>2. You've purchased free range dairy products Free range or not, cows still need to be artificially inseminated (read: industry term to fancy dress "cow rape"), the calves still need to be weaned off after only a few weeks with their mothers (once the colostrum part is over) and/or be given formula milk substitute while humans drink what's rightfully the calf's. Leaving the calf with the cow is absolutely not profitable. Also, the mother cow needs to be culled after only 5-6 years of living because they cannot bear children after that; cows naturally live for up to 20 years. Free range cows still end up in the same slaughter house, so you're indirectly funding the beef industry. Oh, and by the way, if the calf is a male, it's killed right away or sold to the veal industry. It's disgusting and cruel regardless of how much space the cow had to roam in; every other aspect of its life was miserable. Not knowing this is okay, but if you're reading this and the sibling comments, you really have no excuse any more.
- thefounder 6y ago
  You almost make a religion out of this. Make the lion vegan to complete the circle. That would end the misery on this world, right? Some animals are abused and we can work on regulation to prevent that and promote sustainable development (in EU they already have some laws about this) but I don't think making sure cows die by old age should be the end goal.
  - adtac 6y ago
    >Make the lion vegan to complete the circle. 1. Lions are obligate carnivores, we're not. We do not need meat to survive (evidenced by several cultures around the world living off a nearly entirely plant-based diet for centuries), lions do. 2. What animals do isn't a good moral compass. Animals rape each other, steal, kill their children, and do all sorts of morally reprehensible stuff. >Some animals are abused and we can work on regulation to prevent that The best solution to stopping animal abuse is to not breed the animal in the first place. Can't abuse something that doesn't exist now, can we? >I don't think making sure cows die by old age should be the end goal. I never proposed that. I said we shouldn't have bred them into this miserable existence in the first place. Why do we get to decide how long a cow should live? Why do we get to artificially inseminate a cow that cannot possibly give consent? Why do we get to take away the newborn child of a defenceless creature? Come on.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

MiguelHudnandez 6y ago

For your third suggestion, I'll take a shot: For animals to lactate, they must become pregnant. Dairy cows are repeatedly impregnated, they give birth, and they are separated from their calves. Female calves become dairy cows themselves, male calves are either made into veal or killed promptly. A small fraction may become studs for more dairy calves. The entire ordeal is very much not natural and not pleasant. And we do it at a scale that is awe-inducing. If you are a compassionate type that sees cows in a similar light to dogs, I'd bet you can understand why someone would feel very strongly that it's not an option. If you would like to learn more there are a few documentaries that explore the big 3 benefits of veganism--Health, ecology, and animal welfare. I won't link them here as they are easy to find for any that are interested.

dzhiurgis 6y ago
Seems like giving lactation hormones is way more ethical than clubbing baby cows
- cies 6y ago
  Afaik not possible.
  - belorn 6y ago
    Interesting question. A search later and a quick read of this study (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15377608/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15377608/) and the answer seems to be one about economics and FDA approval.

moab 6y ago

Well, if you take the time to learn about dairy farming (even in free range dairy farms), you would quickly find out that cows have a natural lifespan of ~20 years, but cows used in dairy farms have an average lifespan of ~6 years. From the perspective of giving entities that we believe are probably conscious and probably feel suffering and pain a fair chance at life, minimizing the amount of dairy and cheese we consume would seem like a good idea. I'm looking forward to a world where lab-grown cheese substitutes are as good as (or better) than the real thing.

amanaplanacanal 6y ago
> a fair chance at life If you eliminate meat and dairy, those animals won’t have any life at all. The only reason they are there is because humans eat them.
- sc4les 6y ago
  Haha what. So it's okay to have dog fights since the dogs wouldn't be born otherwise? That's such a weird argument
  - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
    I quoted the part I was responding to. I wasn’t making any argument about the larger question as to whether keeping animals is moral.
- moab 6y ago
  I am sure we would still have some number of dairy cows like the lovely highland cows that this person takes care of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmBYs53quP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmBYs53quP8 Their population would be greatly reduced, but is having a billion consciousnesses in a mediocre state and potentially suffering somehow better than having a few orders of magnitude fewer consciousnesses that are properly cared for and living more "natural" lives? It is hard to say without getting into the details, but from a high-level utilitarian perspective, one feels that the latter is somehow more preferable, although doing any kind of arithmetic with souls is a risky business.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

adtac 6y ago

>2. You've purchased free range dairy products Free range or not, cows still need to be artificially inseminated (read: industry term to fancy dress "cow rape"), the calves still need to be weaned off after only a few weeks with their mothers (once the colostrum part is over) and/or be given formula milk substitute while humans drink what's rightfully the calf's. Leaving the calf with the cow is absolutely not profitable. Also, the mother cow needs to be culled after only 5-6 years of living because they cannot bear children after that; cows naturally live for up to 20 years. Free range cows still end up in the same slaughter house, so you're indirectly funding the beef industry. Oh, and by the way, if the calf is a male, it's killed right away or sold to the veal industry. It's disgusting and cruel regardless of how much space the cow had to roam in; every other aspect of its life was miserable. Not knowing this is okay, but if you're reading this and the sibling comments, you really have no excuse any more.

thefounder 6y ago
You almost make a religion out of this. Make the lion vegan to complete the circle. That would end the misery on this world, right? Some animals are abused and we can work on regulation to prevent that and promote sustainable development (in EU they already have some laws about this) but I don't think making sure cows die by old age should be the end goal.
- adtac 6y ago
  >Make the lion vegan to complete the circle. 1. Lions are obligate carnivores, we're not. We do not need meat to survive (evidenced by several cultures around the world living off a nearly entirely plant-based diet for centuries), lions do. 2. What animals do isn't a good moral compass. Animals rape each other, steal, kill their children, and do all sorts of morally reprehensible stuff. >Some animals are abused and we can work on regulation to prevent that The best solution to stopping animal abuse is to not breed the animal in the first place. Can't abuse something that doesn't exist now, can we? >I don't think making sure cows die by old age should be the end goal. I never proposed that. I said we shouldn't have bred them into this miserable existence in the first place. Why do we get to decide how long a cow should live? Why do we get to artificially inseminate a cow that cannot possibly give consent? Why do we get to take away the newborn child of a defenceless creature? Come on.