11 ms·

The appeal of vegan pizza is that no animals were industrially farmed to make it. If you think your cheese is suffering free you are lying to yourself.

coryfklein 6y ago
> you are lying to yourself. Gee well that's a rather bold statement. I find this attitude of "if you're not vegan you're a liar" so insufferable. I can think of at least a few explanations for the parent comment. "If you think your cheese is suffering free..." 1. You may be underinformed 2. You've purchased free range dairy products 3. You know something I don't
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- MiguelHudnandez 6y ago
  For your third suggestion, I'll take a shot: For animals to lactate, they must become pregnant. Dairy cows are repeatedly impregnated, they give birth, and they are separated from their calves. Female calves become dairy cows themselves, male calves are either made into veal or killed promptly. A small fraction may become studs for more dairy calves. The entire ordeal is very much not natural and not pleasant. And we do it at a scale that is awe-inducing. If you are a compassionate type that sees cows in a similar light to dogs, I'd bet you can understand why someone would feel very strongly that it's not an option. If you would like to learn more there are a few documentaries that explore the big 3 benefits of veganism--Health, ecology, and animal welfare. I won't link them here as they are easy to find for any that are interested.
  - dzhiurgis 6y ago
    Seems like giving lactation hormones is way more ethical than clubbing baby cows
    - cies 6y ago
      Afaik not possible.
      - belorn 6y ago
        Interesting question. A search later and a quick read of this study (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15377608/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15377608/) and the answer seems to be one about economics and FDA approval.
- moab 6y ago
  Well, if you take the time to learn about dairy farming (even in free range dairy farms), you would quickly find out that cows have a natural lifespan of ~20 years, but cows used in dairy farms have an average lifespan of ~6 years. From the perspective of giving entities that we believe are probably conscious and probably feel suffering and pain a fair chance at life, minimizing the amount of dairy and cheese we consume would seem like a good idea. I'm looking forward to a world where lab-grown cheese substitutes are as good as (or better) than the real thing.
  - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
    > a fair chance at life If you eliminate meat and dairy, those animals won’t have any life at all. The only reason they are there is because humans eat them.
    - sc4les 6y ago
      Haha what. So it's okay to have dog fights since the dogs wouldn't be born otherwise? That's such a weird argument
      - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
        I quoted the part I was responding to. I wasn’t making any argument about the larger question as to whether keeping animals is moral.
    - moab 6y ago
      I am sure we would still have some number of dairy cows like the lovely highland cows that this person takes care of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmBYs53quP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmBYs53quP8 Their population would be greatly reduced, but is having a billion consciousnesses in a mediocre state and potentially suffering somehow better than having a few orders of magnitude fewer consciousnesses that are properly cared for and living more "natural" lives? It is hard to say without getting into the details, but from a high-level utilitarian perspective, one feels that the latter is somehow more preferable, although doing any kind of arithmetic with souls is a risky business.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- adtac 6y ago
  >2. You've purchased free range dairy products Free range or not, cows still need to be artificially inseminated (read: industry term to fancy dress "cow rape"), the calves still need to be weaned off after only a few weeks with their mothers (once the colostrum part is over) and/or be given formula milk substitute while humans drink what's rightfully the calf's. Leaving the calf with the cow is absolutely not profitable. Also, the mother cow needs to be culled after only 5-6 years of living because they cannot bear children after that; cows naturally live for up to 20 years. Free range cows still end up in the same slaughter house, so you're indirectly funding the beef industry. Oh, and by the way, if the calf is a male, it's killed right away or sold to the veal industry. It's disgusting and cruel regardless of how much space the cow had to roam in; every other aspect of its life was miserable. Not knowing this is okay, but if you're reading this and the sibling comments, you really have no excuse any more.
  - thefounder 6y ago
    You almost make a religion out of this. Make the lion vegan to complete the circle. That would end the misery on this world, right? Some animals are abused and we can work on regulation to prevent that and promote sustainable development (in EU they already have some laws about this) but I don't think making sure cows die by old age should be the end goal.
    - adtac 6y ago
      >Make the lion vegan to complete the circle. 1. Lions are obligate carnivores, we're not. We do not need meat to survive (evidenced by several cultures around the world living off a nearly entirely plant-based diet for centuries), lions do. 2. What animals do isn't a good moral compass. Animals rape each other, steal, kill their children, and do all sorts of morally reprehensible stuff. >Some animals are abused and we can work on regulation to prevent that The best solution to stopping animal abuse is to not breed the animal in the first place. Can't abuse something that doesn't exist now, can we? >I don't think making sure cows die by old age should be the end goal. I never proposed that. I said we shouldn't have bred them into this miserable existence in the first place. Why do we get to decide how long a cow should live? Why do we get to artificially inseminate a cow that cannot possibly give consent? Why do we get to take away the newborn child of a defenceless creature? Come on.
NewOrderNow 6y ago
It is more the concept of wanting something you claim to not want by making a fake version of it. Just eat vegan products? It seems like a cognitive dissonance when I see the words vegan and burger together.
- PretzelPirate 6y ago
  But vegans want burgers, they just don’t want to kill an animal for that burger. This is no different than someone making a turkey burger because they don’t like beef. For some reason, only vegans get called out for making substitutions.
  - andreilys 6y ago
    But they do want to kill plants, which can feel pain and hear themselves being eaten [1] https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/24473/20191218/a-group-of-scientists-suggest-that-plants-feel-pain.htm https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/24473/20191218/a-group...
    - hombre_fatal 6y ago
      Well, meat requires more plants to “suffer” than eating the plants directly. So if this was your line if reasoning, you would be a staunch vegan. The majority of crops are grown to feed livestock. People usually make your argument in bad faith because even when corrected you never had a moral interest in “minimizing plant suffering” to begin with. You just thought you had a good gotcha.
      - least 6y ago
        > So if this was your line if reasoning, you would be a staunch vegan. Not really. A person who eats both doesn't typically agonize over the morality of eating animals or plants like many vegans do. It's pointing out the fallacy of advocating veganism on the basis of animal suffering. That of course is only one argument for veganism among many much stronger ones, but it doesn't make it a bad argument to make.
markdown 6y ago
You shouldn't make assumptions about how others see the world. I'd prefer that my cheese came from an animal that didn't live in abysmal conditions, but TBH I just enjoy the cheese and don't care all that much where it came from.
- detaro 6y ago
  How is that relevant to the question of what appeal vegan pizza has to people that consume it?
  - markdown 6y ago
    It isn't. It's a response to the person I was replying to, who called me a liar.
    - detaro 6y ago
      ... but you don't seem to think that the cheese is suffering-free, you just don't particularly care according to your post?
no_wizard 6y ago
The reality is, the appeal to eating a vegan pizza to some is that they know it will be cruelty free, and I admire that, to be sure. However, if you want to win over the average consumer, or someone who has developed tastebuds over twenty years, or really anyone who doesn't already eat a vegan diet, you have to overcumb 1 crucial thing: It needs to taste good or better than whatever you are trying to replace. I haven't come across a vegan pizza that doesn't taste like the way I have come to expect pizza to taste, the cheese just isn't right. All the food science in the world can't seem to solve this problem (I've tried it homemade, by several skilled professionals, I've tried what was rated as some of the best vegan pizza in my city, mutiple times of the years, and the list goes on). Until it tastes like the pizza I have fundamentally come to expect pizza to taste like, it just isn't worth switching for me. If you can solve this problem, nobody is going to care if its vegan or not, because it just taste good. I wish PETA and the like would focus their time and money on this, since it would actually yield the net benefit results they're looking for without the air of hositility some of their followers have. Yes, you can debate whether its right or wrong to even think this way. The truth is, people in large already do, why not meet them where they are at?
- ceras 6y ago
  For anyone curious, the largest non-profit focusing on exactly that (cheap & delicious vegan alternatives) is the Good Food Institute: https://www.gfi.org/ https://www.gfi.org/
- jedberg 6y ago
  > It needs to taste good or better than whatever you are trying to replace. Or just cost less. At scale (notwithstanding government subsidies), vegan food will be cheaper than animal based food. People don't go to McDonald's because their burgers taste better than at the steakhouse, they go because it's cheaper.
  - no_wizard 6y ago
    Its good tasting at its price point, I'd argue (if you like McDonalds anyway). Nobody is going to be pay more for the same and I think at scale vegan food is cheaper, generally. Its why its all about taste.
AlgorithmicTime 6y ago
I don't believe animals can truly suffer. They're not people.
XaoDaoCaoCao 6y ago
If you think your life ia suffering free to other beings, your existence is predicated on forms of organization and governance which inflict massive suffering aka the military-industrial-logistics system which ensures the delivery of whatever you need from all corners of the globe. Move to a remote island if you want to be a saint. But don't posture to be a holy man or even more simply "a better man" by not eating animals and byproducts.
- jeremysalwen 6y ago
  Since when did making moral decisions become an "all or nothing" affair?
- sc4les 6y ago
  True. But for a start don't pay for dog fights and switch to oat milk, gets you 99% there ;)
  - ikt 6y ago
    Interesting article on Oat milk (specifically Oatly): https://www.jeffnobbs.com/posts/oatly-responds-in-defense-of-its-ingredients https://www.jeffnobbs.com/posts/oatly-responds-in-defense-of...
sunwukung 6y ago
I'm vegan (plant-based eater is less catchy) - but I started for health reasons tbh. Personally, I don't eat that many substitutes, except for convenience when I haven't got time to cook. While the suffering argument is entirely valid, it's obviously not a successful driver of change. The climate change/pandemic/health angle is easily more appealing to the average consumer.

coryfklein 6y ago

> you are lying to yourself. Gee well that's a rather bold statement. I find this attitude of "if you're not vegan you're a liar" so insufferable. I can think of at least a few explanations for the parent comment. "If you think your cheese is suffering free..." 1. You may be underinformed 2. You've purchased free range dairy products 3. You know something I don't

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
MiguelHudnandez 6y ago
For your third suggestion, I'll take a shot: For animals to lactate, they must become pregnant. Dairy cows are repeatedly impregnated, they give birth, and they are separated from their calves. Female calves become dairy cows themselves, male calves are either made into veal or killed promptly. A small fraction may become studs for more dairy calves. The entire ordeal is very much not natural and not pleasant. And we do it at a scale that is awe-inducing. If you are a compassionate type that sees cows in a similar light to dogs, I'd bet you can understand why someone would feel very strongly that it's not an option. If you would like to learn more there are a few documentaries that explore the big 3 benefits of veganism--Health, ecology, and animal welfare. I won't link them here as they are easy to find for any that are interested.
- dzhiurgis 6y ago
  Seems like giving lactation hormones is way more ethical than clubbing baby cows
  - cies 6y ago
    Afaik not possible.
    - belorn 6y ago
      Interesting question. A search later and a quick read of this study (https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15377608/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15377608/) and the answer seems to be one about economics and FDA approval.
moab 6y ago
Well, if you take the time to learn about dairy farming (even in free range dairy farms), you would quickly find out that cows have a natural lifespan of ~20 years, but cows used in dairy farms have an average lifespan of ~6 years. From the perspective of giving entities that we believe are probably conscious and probably feel suffering and pain a fair chance at life, minimizing the amount of dairy and cheese we consume would seem like a good idea. I'm looking forward to a world where lab-grown cheese substitutes are as good as (or better) than the real thing.
- amanaplanacanal 6y ago
  > a fair chance at life If you eliminate meat and dairy, those animals won’t have any life at all. The only reason they are there is because humans eat them.
  - sc4les 6y ago
    Haha what. So it's okay to have dog fights since the dogs wouldn't be born otherwise? That's such a weird argument
    - amanaplanacanal 6y ago
      I quoted the part I was responding to. I wasn’t making any argument about the larger question as to whether keeping animals is moral.
  - moab 6y ago
    I am sure we would still have some number of dairy cows like the lovely highland cows that this person takes care of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmBYs53quP8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmBYs53quP8 Their population would be greatly reduced, but is having a billion consciousnesses in a mediocre state and potentially suffering somehow better than having a few orders of magnitude fewer consciousnesses that are properly cared for and living more "natural" lives? It is hard to say without getting into the details, but from a high-level utilitarian perspective, one feels that the latter is somehow more preferable, although doing any kind of arithmetic with souls is a risky business.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
adtac 6y ago
>2. You've purchased free range dairy products Free range or not, cows still need to be artificially inseminated (read: industry term to fancy dress "cow rape"), the calves still need to be weaned off after only a few weeks with their mothers (once the colostrum part is over) and/or be given formula milk substitute while humans drink what's rightfully the calf's. Leaving the calf with the cow is absolutely not profitable. Also, the mother cow needs to be culled after only 5-6 years of living because they cannot bear children after that; cows naturally live for up to 20 years. Free range cows still end up in the same slaughter house, so you're indirectly funding the beef industry. Oh, and by the way, if the calf is a male, it's killed right away or sold to the veal industry. It's disgusting and cruel regardless of how much space the cow had to roam in; every other aspect of its life was miserable. Not knowing this is okay, but if you're reading this and the sibling comments, you really have no excuse any more.
- thefounder 6y ago
  You almost make a religion out of this. Make the lion vegan to complete the circle. That would end the misery on this world, right? Some animals are abused and we can work on regulation to prevent that and promote sustainable development (in EU they already have some laws about this) but I don't think making sure cows die by old age should be the end goal.
  - adtac 6y ago
    >Make the lion vegan to complete the circle. 1. Lions are obligate carnivores, we're not. We do not need meat to survive (evidenced by several cultures around the world living off a nearly entirely plant-based diet for centuries), lions do. 2. What animals do isn't a good moral compass. Animals rape each other, steal, kill their children, and do all sorts of morally reprehensible stuff. >Some animals are abused and we can work on regulation to prevent that The best solution to stopping animal abuse is to not breed the animal in the first place. Can't abuse something that doesn't exist now, can we? >I don't think making sure cows die by old age should be the end goal. I never proposed that. I said we shouldn't have bred them into this miserable existence in the first place. Why do we get to decide how long a cow should live? Why do we get to artificially inseminate a cow that cannot possibly give consent? Why do we get to take away the newborn child of a defenceless creature? Come on.

NewOrderNow 6y ago

It is more the concept of wanting something you claim to not want by making a fake version of it. Just eat vegan products? It seems like a cognitive dissonance when I see the words vegan and burger together.

PretzelPirate 6y ago
But vegans want burgers, they just don’t want to kill an animal for that burger. This is no different than someone making a turkey burger because they don’t like beef. For some reason, only vegans get called out for making substitutions.
- andreilys 6y ago
  But they do want to kill plants, which can feel pain and hear themselves being eaten [1] https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/24473/20191218/a-group-of-scientists-suggest-that-plants-feel-pain.htm https://www.sciencetimes.com/articles/24473/20191218/a-group...
  - hombre_fatal 6y ago
    Well, meat requires more plants to “suffer” than eating the plants directly. So if this was your line if reasoning, you would be a staunch vegan. The majority of crops are grown to feed livestock. People usually make your argument in bad faith because even when corrected you never had a moral interest in “minimizing plant suffering” to begin with. You just thought you had a good gotcha.
    - least 6y ago
      > So if this was your line if reasoning, you would be a staunch vegan. Not really. A person who eats both doesn't typically agonize over the morality of eating animals or plants like many vegans do. It's pointing out the fallacy of advocating veganism on the basis of animal suffering. That of course is only one argument for veganism among many much stronger ones, but it doesn't make it a bad argument to make.

markdown 6y ago

You shouldn't make assumptions about how others see the world. I'd prefer that my cheese came from an animal that didn't live in abysmal conditions, but TBH I just enjoy the cheese and don't care all that much where it came from.

detaro 6y ago
How is that relevant to the question of what appeal vegan pizza has to people that consume it?
- markdown 6y ago
  It isn't. It's a response to the person I was replying to, who called me a liar.
  - detaro 6y ago
    ... but you don't seem to think that the cheese is suffering-free, you just don't particularly care according to your post?

no_wizard 6y ago

The reality is, the appeal to eating a vegan pizza to some is that they know it will be cruelty free, and I admire that, to be sure. However, if you want to win over the average consumer, or someone who has developed tastebuds over twenty years, or really anyone who doesn't already eat a vegan diet, you have to overcumb 1 crucial thing: It needs to taste good or better than whatever you are trying to replace. I haven't come across a vegan pizza that doesn't taste like the way I have come to expect pizza to taste, the cheese just isn't right. All the food science in the world can't seem to solve this problem (I've tried it homemade, by several skilled professionals, I've tried what was rated as some of the best vegan pizza in my city, mutiple times of the years, and the list goes on). Until it tastes like the pizza I have fundamentally come to expect pizza to taste like, it just isn't worth switching for me. If you can solve this problem, nobody is going to care if its vegan or not, because it just taste good. I wish PETA and the like would focus their time and money on this, since it would actually yield the net benefit results they're looking for without the air of hositility some of their followers have. Yes, you can debate whether its right or wrong to even think this way. The truth is, people in large already do, why not meet them where they are at?

ceras 6y ago
For anyone curious, the largest non-profit focusing on exactly that (cheap & delicious vegan alternatives) is the Good Food Institute: https://www.gfi.org/ https://www.gfi.org/
jedberg 6y ago
> It needs to taste good or better than whatever you are trying to replace. Or just cost less. At scale (notwithstanding government subsidies), vegan food will be cheaper than animal based food. People don't go to McDonald's because their burgers taste better than at the steakhouse, they go because it's cheaper.
- no_wizard 6y ago
  Its good tasting at its price point, I'd argue (if you like McDonalds anyway). Nobody is going to be pay more for the same and I think at scale vegan food is cheaper, generally. Its why its all about taste.

AlgorithmicTime 6y ago

I don't believe animals can truly suffer. They're not people.

XaoDaoCaoCao 6y ago

If you think your life ia suffering free to other beings, your existence is predicated on forms of organization and governance which inflict massive suffering aka the military-industrial-logistics system which ensures the delivery of whatever you need from all corners of the globe. Move to a remote island if you want to be a saint. But don't posture to be a holy man or even more simply "a better man" by not eating animals and byproducts.

jeremysalwen 6y ago
Since when did making moral decisions become an "all or nothing" affair?
sc4les 6y ago
True. But for a start don't pay for dog fights and switch to oat milk, gets you 99% there ;)
- ikt 6y ago
  Interesting article on Oat milk (specifically Oatly): https://www.jeffnobbs.com/posts/oatly-responds-in-defense-of-its-ingredients https://www.jeffnobbs.com/posts/oatly-responds-in-defense-of...

sunwukung 6y ago

I'm vegan (plant-based eater is less catchy) - but I started for health reasons tbh. Personally, I don't eat that many substitutes, except for convenience when I haven't got time to cook. While the suffering argument is entirely valid, it's obviously not a successful driver of change. The climate change/pandemic/health angle is easily more appealing to the average consumer.