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My understanding is that -80c cold storage isn't widely available. The Ebola outbreak might have shown how to get small numbers of doses into a warzone, but sc

My understanding is that -80c cold storage isn't widely available. The Ebola outbreak might have shown how to get small numbers of doses into a warzone, but scaling this up might prove to be a logistical difficulty. "Once a provider receives that vaccine, it really starts the clock that the vaccine needs to be administered within five days of when it's put in the refrigerator" Source: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-vaccine-distribution-storage-financial-needs/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/coronavirus-vaccine-distributio...

bluGill 6y ago
Sure it is. Any small city (> 50,000 people) has someone who can get you liquid nitrogen in far larger quantities than will ever be needed (thus stuff is used for a lot of industrial processes). Put it in a cooler from wal-mart and you have a week. Any you get a week after thawing it to use is anyway, so you don't need the cold storage where the end user is. I don't know what the thawing protocols are of course.
- chasd00 6y ago
  i'm involved in some state government COVID vaccine projects. The issue is you can't just knock together cold storage like this, there's (naturally) a long process to get "approved" and "certified" for vaccine administration. Storage is one of these criteria, they're not going to hand over a batch of vaccine to some doc with a cooler of dry ice.
  - bluGill 6y ago
    Of course not. they need to ensure the cooler is packed correctly - those standards exist. Those I don't think the doc even needs a fancy cooler, if I understand correctly they need to thaw this first, by the time the individual doc gets it they need to be thawing it and then using it quick. (I don't know what thaw procedures are though)
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
  - wbl 6y ago
    Don't they know their's a plague on? There are lots of rules that should have stopped the Atlantic Conveyor from sailing.
- danesparza 6y ago
  So I appreciate that liquid nitrogen can keep things cool. And I appreciate that it can keep things cooler than the required -80c. (Nevermind that keeping it inside of a temperature range might be important as well). But I think you're overlooking something rather important: Storing liquid nitrogen in a vacuum flask only keeps the liquid nitrogen cold for hours or days. It doesn't keep the thing cold that you're cooling with liquid nitrogen. The week you get to use it is after the dose has been created. If it's brought below temperature for any length of time, it can presumably DESTROY the dosages affected by temperature. See the current flu vaccine storage protocols, for example: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/vac-storage.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/vac-sto... "Regular temperature monitoring is key to proper cold chain management. Store frozen vaccines (Varicella, MMRV, and Zoster) in a freezer between -58°F and +5°F (-50°C and -15°C). Store all other routinely recommended vaccines in a refrigerator between 35°F and 46°F (2°C and 8°C). The desired average refrigerator vaccine storage temperature is 40°F (5°C). Exposure to temperatures outside these ranges may result in reduced vaccine potency and increased risk of vaccine-preventable diseases."

bluGill 6y ago

Sure it is. Any small city (> 50,000 people) has someone who can get you liquid nitrogen in far larger quantities than will ever be needed (thus stuff is used for a lot of industrial processes). Put it in a cooler from wal-mart and you have a week. Any you get a week after thawing it to use is anyway, so you don't need the cold storage where the end user is. I don't know what the thawing protocols are of course.

chasd00 6y ago
i'm involved in some state government COVID vaccine projects. The issue is you can't just knock together cold storage like this, there's (naturally) a long process to get "approved" and "certified" for vaccine administration. Storage is one of these criteria, they're not going to hand over a batch of vaccine to some doc with a cooler of dry ice.
- bluGill 6y ago
  Of course not. they need to ensure the cooler is packed correctly - those standards exist. Those I don't think the doc even needs a fancy cooler, if I understand correctly they need to thaw this first, by the time the individual doc gets it they need to be thawing it and then using it quick. (I don't know what thaw procedures are though)
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
- wbl 6y ago
  Don't they know their's a plague on? There are lots of rules that should have stopped the Atlantic Conveyor from sailing.
danesparza 6y ago
So I appreciate that liquid nitrogen can keep things cool. And I appreciate that it can keep things cooler than the required -80c. (Nevermind that keeping it inside of a temperature range might be important as well). But I think you're overlooking something rather important: Storing liquid nitrogen in a vacuum flask only keeps the liquid nitrogen cold for hours or days. It doesn't keep the thing cold that you're cooling with liquid nitrogen. The week you get to use it is after the dose has been created. If it's brought below temperature for any length of time, it can presumably DESTROY the dosages affected by temperature. See the current flu vaccine storage protocols, for example: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/vac-storage.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/downloads/vac-sto... "Regular temperature monitoring is key to proper cold chain management. Store frozen vaccines (Varicella, MMRV, and Zoster) in a freezer between -58°F and +5°F (-50°C and -15°C). Store all other routinely recommended vaccines in a refrigerator between 35°F and 46°F (2°C and 8°C). The desired average refrigerator vaccine storage temperature is 40°F (5°C). Exposure to temperatures outside these ranges may result in reduced vaccine potency and increased risk of vaccine-preventable diseases."