5 ms·

I wonder if the people scared of permanent damage caused by Covid (for which there is no evidence) will be equally scared of the permanent damage caused by this

I wonder if the people scared of permanent damage caused by Covid (for which there is no evidence) will be equally scared of the permanent damage caused by this experimental vaccine (for which there is no evidence either).

jusssi 6y ago
> I wonder if the people scared of permanent damage caused by Covid (for which there is no evidence) According to Google, 1.26M deaths and counting. If dying is not permanent damage, I'm not sure what is.
- anoncake 6y ago
  You know exactly what I meant so don't pretend otherwise. By the way, 1.26 million is less than 0.02% of the world's population.
  - jusssi 6y ago
    No, I don't. Please explain.
    - anoncake 6y ago
      Apologies. I meant the myth of "Long Covid" – people being permanently disabled after they had Covid.
      - nicoburns 6y ago
        In what way does thousands of people self-reporting new and ongoing medical issues after a positive COVID diagnosis not constitute evidence that this is happening? Clinical trials are not the only form of evidence.
        collyw 6y ago
        The vast majority of serve cases had co-morbidities before covid. Of course they are going to have problems after.
        nicoburns 6y ago
        One of the striking things about "Long Covid" patients is that many of them didn't have severe covid symptoms (they didn't require hospitalisation, etc), and yet they have still had ongoing problems months later (some people have reported symptoms clearing up a few months later, some people still have unresolved issues).
        djsumdog 6y ago
        Which also a symptom of mass-hysteria. I've read the UK study published from the publisher in Charlottesville and it's a case study of ~60 people (and there are 8 individual cause studies from that study) and almost all of them were either over 55, or were in high risk jobs (jobs were not mentioned for privacy). Many of the old had comorbidity. If you read the actual papers and not the press releases on "long-covid" .. it's really small groups, and honestly, it could easily be nocebo or hysteria. It could be a real effect too (like lymes disease, where the immune system continues to overreact after the infection is gone). It's really way too early to tell. Also, ANY virus can lead to permanent neurological damage in the elderly. It can happen for things that are minor infections for 30 year olds.
        aaron695 6y ago
        > In what way does thousands of people self-reporting new and ongoing medical issues after a positive COVID diagnosis not constitute evidence that this is happening? What we see every single day in society by massive amounts of people. People getting ill from nocebos. Given the issues we know around self-reporting why on earth would you believe it? And given the massive amounts of hours and funding put into the coronavirus, the missing clinical data matters. Getting away from the trolling of the op, pretending they didn't know about the deaths. We know being on a respirator will cause damage. We know antibiotics or steroids or whatever causes damage. We know being in a coma will cause damage. What's being talked about is new/additional/unknown damage caused by this virus. The real data on this is slim.
justforyou 6y ago
There is plenty of evidence and ongoing study of long-term sequelae. Denying such is wildly irresponsible and hostile to the community. Stop trolling.
- anoncake 6y ago
  Then please post some of that evidence. Evidence, not anecdotes -- of course there are individual cases among millions of infected, that doesn't mean it's a phenomenon worth caring about.
  - justforyou 6y ago
    You've set an impossible burden of proof. Not going to engage in a discussion of this with someone acting in bad faith. Good day.
    - anoncake 6y ago
      It is not impossible to monitor an adequate number of people who had Covid and see if they are getting better. If their state plateaus, that is evidence their condition may be permanent.
jason0597 6y ago
Experimental vaccine? I disagree. Nearly 45,000 people have taken this vaccine, and they have been monitored for months to make sure no adverse reactions have happened. Combine that with the fact that we live in 2020, and that our knowledge of vaccine science is much better than it was just a couple of decades ago, and it's hard to believe that this is an "experimental" vaccine.
- anoncake 6y ago
  How do we know there won't be any adverse effects after years?
- djsumdog 6y ago
  45,000 is an incredibly small sample set and this is an incredibly short amount of time. Look at 1976 and the Swing Flu vaccine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bOHYZhL0WQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bOHYZhL0WQ 45,000 doesn't scale up to 100 million or a few billions. The Swing Flu vaccine left major neurological problems in over 4,000 people, many of which were paid out in law suits. We still have vaccine courts.
  - mensetmanusman 6y ago
    It’s up to individuals to make that risk assessment. If you fit the risk profile of COVID, it may be an easier assessment.
mlindner 6y ago
Previous polling in the US showed only 70% of people would want a vaccine as soon as it comes available. And it keeps going down as time goes on. https://news.gallup.com/poll/321839/readiness-covid-vaccine-falls-past-month.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/321839/readiness-covid-vaccine-...
- 1_player 6y ago
  Thankfully, the US antivax movement is not as strong in the rest of the world, and thankfully not everyone needs to be vaccinated for the R0 figure to drop considerably. If cretins don't want to be vaccinated, it's their loss.
  - djsumdog 6y ago
    This isn't "antivax" ... Are all drugs that have been approve effective and safe? Including Viox? We have had bad vaccines before (The 1960s Swing Flu) that lead to serious complications. I got most of my shots (MMR, Polio, Meningitis, Hep B, Tetanus booster, etc.), but I would NOT take this one. It's been rushed through the process, and vaccine safety takes years. This is a brand new type of vaccine (mRNA), a type that has never been successfully deployed before, for a virus family that's never had a successful vaccine before. Stop dismissing legitimate concerns as "antivax". Each vaccine is very different. I'm not at high risk (<40) and I'm also a software engineer who has watched millions in losses from badly designed, badly implemented, rushed software. Skipping the 8 ~ 10 year set of standard tests for this vaccine does not increase my confidence. I'll wait until I turn 48~49 and watch what happens with all the volunteers first before making my assessment based on all the available data.
aww_dang 6y ago
Given that there will be a limited number of initial doses, healthy people have the luxury of taking a "wait and see" approach. It will be interesting to see if vaccines are mandated generally or for travel.

jusssi 6y ago

> I wonder if the people scared of permanent damage caused by Covid (for which there is no evidence) According to Google, 1.26M deaths and counting. If dying is not permanent damage, I'm not sure what is.

anoncake 6y ago
You know exactly what I meant so don't pretend otherwise. By the way, 1.26 million is less than 0.02% of the world's population.
- jusssi 6y ago
  No, I don't. Please explain.
  - anoncake 6y ago
    Apologies. I meant the myth of "Long Covid" – people being permanently disabled after they had Covid.
    - nicoburns 6y ago
      In what way does thousands of people self-reporting new and ongoing medical issues after a positive COVID diagnosis not constitute evidence that this is happening? Clinical trials are not the only form of evidence.
      - collyw 6y ago
        The vast majority of serve cases had co-morbidities before covid. Of course they are going to have problems after.
        nicoburns 6y ago
        One of the striking things about "Long Covid" patients is that many of them didn't have severe covid symptoms (they didn't require hospitalisation, etc), and yet they have still had ongoing problems months later (some people have reported symptoms clearing up a few months later, some people still have unresolved issues).
        djsumdog 6y ago
        Which also a symptom of mass-hysteria. I've read the UK study published from the publisher in Charlottesville and it's a case study of ~60 people (and there are 8 individual cause studies from that study) and almost all of them were either over 55, or were in high risk jobs (jobs were not mentioned for privacy). Many of the old had comorbidity. If you read the actual papers and not the press releases on "long-covid" .. it's really small groups, and honestly, it could easily be nocebo or hysteria. It could be a real effect too (like lymes disease, where the immune system continues to overreact after the infection is gone). It's really way too early to tell. Also, ANY virus can lead to permanent neurological damage in the elderly. It can happen for things that are minor infections for 30 year olds.
      - aaron695 6y ago
        > In what way does thousands of people self-reporting new and ongoing medical issues after a positive COVID diagnosis not constitute evidence that this is happening? What we see every single day in society by massive amounts of people. People getting ill from nocebos. Given the issues we know around self-reporting why on earth would you believe it? And given the massive amounts of hours and funding put into the coronavirus, the missing clinical data matters. Getting away from the trolling of the op, pretending they didn't know about the deaths. We know being on a respirator will cause damage. We know antibiotics or steroids or whatever causes damage. We know being in a coma will cause damage. What's being talked about is new/additional/unknown damage caused by this virus. The real data on this is slim.

justforyou 6y ago

There is plenty of evidence and ongoing study of long-term sequelae. Denying such is wildly irresponsible and hostile to the community. Stop trolling.

anoncake 6y ago
Then please post some of that evidence. Evidence, not anecdotes -- of course there are individual cases among millions of infected, that doesn't mean it's a phenomenon worth caring about.
- justforyou 6y ago
  You've set an impossible burden of proof. Not going to engage in a discussion of this with someone acting in bad faith. Good day.
  - anoncake 6y ago
    It is not impossible to monitor an adequate number of people who had Covid and see if they are getting better. If their state plateaus, that is evidence their condition may be permanent.

jason0597 6y ago

Experimental vaccine? I disagree. Nearly 45,000 people have taken this vaccine, and they have been monitored for months to make sure no adverse reactions have happened. Combine that with the fact that we live in 2020, and that our knowledge of vaccine science is much better than it was just a couple of decades ago, and it's hard to believe that this is an "experimental" vaccine.

anoncake 6y ago
How do we know there won't be any adverse effects after years?
djsumdog 6y ago
45,000 is an incredibly small sample set and this is an incredibly short amount of time. Look at 1976 and the Swing Flu vaccine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bOHYZhL0WQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bOHYZhL0WQ 45,000 doesn't scale up to 100 million or a few billions. The Swing Flu vaccine left major neurological problems in over 4,000 people, many of which were paid out in law suits. We still have vaccine courts.
- mensetmanusman 6y ago
  It’s up to individuals to make that risk assessment. If you fit the risk profile of COVID, it may be an easier assessment.

mlindner 6y ago

Previous polling in the US showed only 70% of people would want a vaccine as soon as it comes available. And it keeps going down as time goes on. https://news.gallup.com/poll/321839/readiness-covid-vaccine-falls-past-month.aspx https://news.gallup.com/poll/321839/readiness-covid-vaccine-...

1_player 6y ago
Thankfully, the US antivax movement is not as strong in the rest of the world, and thankfully not everyone needs to be vaccinated for the R0 figure to drop considerably. If cretins don't want to be vaccinated, it's their loss.
- djsumdog 6y ago
  This isn't "antivax" ... Are all drugs that have been approve effective and safe? Including Viox? We have had bad vaccines before (The 1960s Swing Flu) that lead to serious complications. I got most of my shots (MMR, Polio, Meningitis, Hep B, Tetanus booster, etc.), but I would NOT take this one. It's been rushed through the process, and vaccine safety takes years. This is a brand new type of vaccine (mRNA), a type that has never been successfully deployed before, for a virus family that's never had a successful vaccine before. Stop dismissing legitimate concerns as "antivax". Each vaccine is very different. I'm not at high risk (<40) and I'm also a software engineer who has watched millions in losses from badly designed, badly implemented, rushed software. Skipping the 8 ~ 10 year set of standard tests for this vaccine does not increase my confidence. I'll wait until I turn 48~49 and watch what happens with all the volunteers first before making my assessment based on all the available data.

aww_dang 6y ago

Given that there will be a limited number of initial doses, healthy people have the luxury of taking a "wait and see" approach. It will be interesting to see if vaccines are mandated generally or for travel.